Allied Spain

So, I think, events probably proceed:
1) Western Allies land in Spain. Franco declares against Germany as soon as the landings (probably initially of planes flying off carriers to Spanish airfields, to cover troops arriving by boat/ship) arrive, and expels diplomats, gives appropriate notice to volunteers fighting in Russia of what to do, etc, etc.
2) Hitler rants and raves, about Franco's treachery, and about the importance of stopping the allies at the Pyrenees, at the very least. He sends a message to the Vichy government: German troops will be moving into the territory you currently control in a couple of hours time, irrespective what you do. Are you on our side or not? He possibly offers France Spanish Morocco, for what that's worth (if anything) as a 'bribe'. He also notifies Mussolini to be ready to move to seize southern France and Corsica.
Wipes egg off face, for not having fact checked the date the Italians actually invaded in the first place, lol.

Amend above to, do the Allies think that they can hold Corsica?
 
I would vote, but need a bit of information first, what do the occupiers of Corsica have? The allies have three divisions in reserve, 1 armored and 2 Inf? What does allied intel say the Axis occupation forces in Corsica have to fight off an immediate allied invasion?....

OTL 6 Nov. Italy had two infantry divisions on Sardinia, a corps HQ & some corps support units, the militia, coastal artillery at the main port, and some torpedo boats. Not sure if there was anything larger than a torpedo boat based there. There seem to have been 130 operational aircraft based on Sardinia. When Op torch occured the Axis surges the aircraft count to over 300, but I'm unsure how long that was sustained. The Axis bombers made a few raids on the Algerian ports in Nov-Dec.

I've seen numbers as high as 90,000 Italian soldiers sent to Corsica from November 1940. If it was that many I'm gurssing a lot were administrative personnel to convert French government to Italian. In October 1943 when the Allies did invade Corsica there was a mobile field division & some sort of other division, perhaps militia or static.

Two points about the Italian fighting ability. One is the Italians played a major role in ousting Barres Tunis Division from its defense on the Medjeb river in Nov 1942. Second is the Corsican garrison is credited with inflicting some 1,500 losses on the German corps withdrawing from Sardinia and crossing Corsica to the mainland in November 1943. When properly led & motivated they could bite. I think a lot more research is needed before guessing how much trouble a landing on Sardinia or Corsica would be.

....

Amend above to, do the Allies think that they can hold Corsica?

I dont see a problem with the Allies holding Corsica. Out of inexperience they might screw up and lose the landing. But, once ashore the Axis cant do much more than bomb them a lot and attempt to interdict the sea lane to the ports. Sort of like they did to the Allies moving from Algeria to Tunisia.

....
5) Possibly Petain stays in mainland France, declining to leave it, and is captured by the Germans. In the meantime Darlan sends a message to Washington noting that between Franco's forces and the western Allied forces now landing in Spain, the western Allies have somewhere close to the 'if you come with twenty divisions, we will ally with you' figure (I think that with Franco it *probably* comes close to this) and asking if they would like to fight alongside France, and put forces (or equipment) in French North Africa to help repel any landing attempt from Italy and/or to attack Libya from the west? At the very least, the French fleet in North Africa needs fuel, to fight.
6) What next????

Yeah, thats sort of where I ended up.

Short answer, C.

Two of three indicate a aggresive move, one suggesting Corsica.
 
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Anyone have detailed info on the Brit/Commonwealth forces remaining in the UK 7 Nov 1942? Below is a summary of where the US forces were & what they were up to. Even with that its not entirely clear what remained in the US that might be combat ready. About all I can see at this point is the National Guard formations were sent fairly early as they were not bleeding off cadres to for new units. Second the US 5th & 29th Inf Div were still in Iceland & the UK after Op Torch was executed. Odds are they would be there in our hypothetical Op Olive since the initial naval lift was maxed out.

Information is from Stauntons 'OB of the US Army in WWII'. Shown below also is info on when the divisions were "split" to provide cadres for new divisions. It was possible to provide those cadres without splitting, but significant delays would havve been incurred in training those cadres & the new formations. There were also issues in retraining the divisions when they were converted from square to triangular in 1940-41. For some the conversion/combat readiness was not complete until 1942.

This shows where the ready, and not so ready divisions sent overseas in 1942/43 ended up.
5 ID Iceland..............3/42 Replaced Marine Brigade sent there in 1941

29 ID UK.................11/42

1 ID UK................... 8/42

3 ID Tunisia.............11/42

9 ID Tunisia.............11/42

34 ID UK.................. 1/42

1 Armored UK........... 5/42

2 Armored Tunisia......11/42


Note how of this lot sent to combat in the Pacific 1942 all but the Marines are former NG units

TF 6814 South Pacific 1/42 (AmeriCal Div ) Solomons Sept 1942. Lots of NG units in this TF

41 Infantry South Pacific......3/42 Australia to Dec 42 then New Guniea

27 Infantry Pacific 3/42 Hawaii to Oct 1943, then CentPac

1 Marine South Pacific 3/42 Fiji to Aug 42, then to Solomons

32 Infantry South Pacific 4/42 New Guinea in Sept 1942

37 Infantry South Pacific 5/42 Fiji to April 1943

2 Marine South Pacific 9/42 Solomons

40 Infantry Pacific 8/42 Hawaii to Dec 1943

Also 24 & 25 ID are in Hawaii. the 24th sent to S pacific in Aug 43, the 25th sent to Guadalcanal Dec 42

............Activated...........
1 Cav..... 1921
2dCav.....1941.................Contributed cadres for 8AD 4/1942,, 9AD 4/1942, 93ID 5/1942 2d Cav inactivated 8/1942. Reactivated 3/1943
Pillipine..1921
1st.........1917.................76th ID 6/1942
2d..........1917.................85th ID 5/1942.......2d split again for...102d ID 9/1942
3rd.........1917.................81st ID 6/1942
4th.........1940.................79th ID 6/1942.......4th split again for...84th ID 10/1942
5th.........1939.......Sent to Iceland early 1942
6th.........1939.................90th ID 3/1942.......6th split again for...89th ID 7/1942
7th.........1940.................95th ID 7/1942.......7th split again for...99th ID 11/1942
8th.........1940.................85th ID 5/1942.......8th split again for...102d ID 9/1942
9th.........1940.................82d ID 3/1942.......8th split again for...88th ID 9/1942 Note 82ID redesignated Airborne 8/42
24th.......10/1941... Original Hawaiian Division
25th.......10/1941... Formed out of miscl NG units in Hawaii & other from US.
Americal..5/1942 out of miscl separated units sent to S pacific in early 1942

Of the 17 new divisions shown above 14 were split again in 1942-43 for new divisions. Part of the splitting included the fourth regiment and two brigade HQ removed from the original divisions removed for conversion from 'square'.

26- 45 excepting 39 were National Guard divisions activated from October 1940 through March 1940. 18 total. NG divisions were not split like the others, but did have a portion of their individual cadres bled off to other other units, plus the fourth regiment and two brigade HQ removed for conversion from 'square'

1AD.........1940.................6 AD 2/1942
2AD.........1940.................6 AD 2/1942

3AD.........1941
4AD.........1941.................8 AD 1/1942....Provided cadres for 10AD 7/42, 11AD 8/42, 12AD 9/42, 13AD 10/42, 14AD 11/42, 20AD 3/43
5AD.........1941.................6 AD 1/1942
7AD.........1/1942
16AD.......7/43

The dates shown above are official activation dates. Key personel, the core cadre, were identified by name 4-6 months before the activation date & were sent to appropriate schools for their new job. This was usually one level above their previous job. ie: A major as assistant G3 in the 6th ID would become the primary G3 officer in the 90th ID. Cadres were also bled off from the divisions to form Corps and Army HQ staff.

Anyway, extra US Army formations sent overseas after November 1942 are liable to have ripple effects on activating and making ready other formations in 1943.

Note: There were two reorganizations of the infantry divisions after the 1940 mobilization. First was conversion from square divisions to a triangular organization based on prewar experimentation. Second occured in 1942 & was based on lessons learned and new equipment available. The second 'lightend' the ID by reducing the over all personnel numbers over 10% while keeping the rifle squad strength intact. This second reorg. in 1942 also delayed readiness of many units.
 
Officially the Blue Division was withdrawn back to Spain 10 Oct 1943. Some 3,000 members remained with the Germans and a trickle of volunteers continued to join the German sponsored Spanish unit, or other units like the SS.
 
Officially the Blue Division was withdrawn back to Spain 10 Oct 1943. Some 3,000 members remained with the Germans and a trickle of volunteers continued to join the German sponsored Spanish unit, or other units like the SS.

In Ops Scenario would these remaining Blue Division members take part in the invasion of Spain and be designated for postions in a puppet rump government and its militia (ala Italian Social Republic) or would they be punished for Franco´s switch ?
 
Wipes egg off face, for not having fact checked the date the Italians actually invaded in the first place, lol.

Amend above to, do the Allies think that they can hold Corsica?

An Axis invasion of Spain would certainly result in a Guerilla warfare. There would be certainly Basque partisans in the Pyrenees.
 
In Ops Scenario would these remaining Blue Division members take part in the invasion of Spain and be designated for postions in a puppet rump government and its militia (ala Italian Social Republic) or would they be punished for Franco´s switch ?

Some would, tho most volunteered to either fight communism or to correct the political problem of having backed the wrong side in the civil war. Being sent back to fight fellow Spaniards would be unacceptable to a portion & they would evade such service, desert, or surrender.

More important would be the facists in Spain who would favor Germany & interfere with the Allied operations and the Spanish government. Spy networks would develop, sabatoge, and guerillia warfare.
 
Anyone have detailed info on the Brit/Commonwealth forces remaining in the UK 7 Nov 1942?

It's a bit complicated:) but roughly (unchecked)

Sent to Tunisia in stages
6th Armoured
1st, 4th, 46th, 56th, 78th Infantry

Deployed later
1st Airborne
Guards, 11th, 79th Armoured
3rd, 15th, 43rd, 49th, 52nd, 53rd, 59th Infantry

Canadian
4th, 5th Armoured
1st, 2nd, 3rd Infantry

Polish Armoured

Formed later
6th Airborne

Royal Marine - disbanded later for D-Day landing craft crews

Plus 9th, 42nd Armoured later disbanded, and lower establishment training/defensive divisions.

There will of course be units available from 8th Army after North Africa is cleared.
 
Thanks thats a big step. At this point it looks like the Allies have roughly twenty divisions on hand in the UK, after Op torch or Olive is executed. This assumes the same size & composition force for Op Olive. Not much use in counting the British home guard/training 'divisions'. However well trained they might have been it looks like they lacked the equipment for expeditionary service.

This gives roughly 12 divisions for Op Torch or Op Olive & at least ten more available in the UK, depending on shipping limits and combat readiness.

Thought I had a German OB for late 1942, but cant find it. My OB for mid 42 looks worthless as it does not show the SS Corps that started assembling in France in the autum of 42.
 
What if instead the Nationalists lose the civil war and the Republicans side with the Allies. How effective would the Spanish resistance be?

Alternatively: What if Hitler decides to cut through Spain in order to get to Gibraltar
 
What if instead the Nationalists lose the civil war and the Republicans side with the Allies. How effective would the Spanish resistance be?

It makes this Allied Spain WI slightly more likely, tho still not probable.

Alternatively: What if Hitler decides to cut through Spain in order to get to Gibraltar

If the Strait is closed the Allies will seriously consider invading Spainish territory on both sides. A lot of Brits will be all for that, but there are some high costs. They may just write off the western Med & build more high speed cargo ships for the Cape route. They certainly would seize the Azores, Canaries, & other key Spanish & Portuguse islands in the Atlantic. Thats about 99.99% given
 
5 ID Iceland..............3/42 Replaced Marine Brigade sent there in 1941

Never understood why the 5th was sent to Iceland instead of one of the NG divisions. Presumably the 5th was better trained and equipped, so it seems to make better sense to send it to a combat zone instead of garrison duty.

Was the 5th a division of fresh recruits at that point with the experienced troops sent to other units?
 
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The NG had started active service in Sept-Dec, 1940 so many were ready in March 42 Also the NG were not allowed overseas service until after Sept 41. Same problem for the draftees. Tied to the War Powers Acts of 1940 were restricts on deployment of conscripts. All that changed in the autum of 41. Most US voters realized war was inevitable for the US.

Possibly the choice of the 5th ID came from Marshals belief the Brits were serious when they agreed to a cross Channel attack in 43.
 
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Was the 5th a division of fresh recruits at that point with the experienced troops sent to other units?

Was a mix of Regular Army, Reserve officers. Pre draft volunteers, draftees, and whatever. As it sat in Iceland there was some drawing out of experienced men to new units, or medical discharges. Replacements were fresh out out schools usually.
 
Never understood why the 5th was sent to Iceland instead of one of the NG divisions. Presumably the 5th was better trained and equipped, so it seems to make better sense to send it to a combat zone instead of garrison duty.

Was the 5th a division of fresh recruits at that point with the experienced troops sent to other units?
(edited, rewording)
In the third volume of Churchill's Second World War, there's a memorandum in one of the appendices (dated from the summer of 1941) about possibly using Iceland as a training ground for Alpine troops. I've been checking Wikipedia and so on, to try and find out if this was a Churchill 'idea' that anything ever came of, but haven't found anything yet to indicate one way or the other.
 
I wonder if we might not end up with a "Norway-esque" type engagement, if both sides attempt to land on Corsica on the same day. OTL, the Italians sent an initial 30,000 men, and ended up with 85,000 or so eventually according to wiki. If the allied have 3 divisions afloat, that could make for some interesting times.
 
If I have the correct dates Italy occupied Corsica November 1940. Looking at the map its clear Sardinia would be the first of a package for the Allies. It makes little sense to leave a Axis air and naval base so close on the flank.

But, yes a near simultaneous move is possible. Op Torch & the Tunisian half of Op Anton were barely 48 hours apart. So Axis reinforcements to Sardinia/Corsica can be expected to start in 48 hours or less after a Allied invasion.

If the Axis are already committed to seizing Tunisia against hostile French, then they have some tough choices in reversing the flow in that direction to Sardinia/Corsica.
 
Looking at the map its clear Sardinia would be the first of a package for the Allies. It makes little sense to leave a Axis air and naval base so close on the flank.
I would agree, but...

In Corsica, the allies would be expecting to land on a friendly island (assuming that Vichy says yes you can), and that any landings would be opposed, if at all, by newly arrived/arriving axis forces. This must be differientated from going into Sardina, where the Axis are present in unknown numbers. If they think they can take Sardina with the three divisions they have in theater and ready to go, then surely they should try.

For my money, though, I wouldn't want to take that gamble. Still, it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.
 
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