Allied Spain

Mrstrategy

Banned
What if Spain had declare war on germany in 1944 just after d-day happen in a agrement for some historical territory in morocco and france
 
Germany runs them over. They've still got enough strength to do so, and Spain isn't recovered from the civil war. No reason for Franco to do this.
 

Mrstrategy

Banned
Germany runs them over. They've still got enough strength to do so, and Spain isn't recovered from the civil war. No reason for Franco to do this.
Germany is busy with d-day,italy and the eastern front can they afford to send troops against Spain?
 
Germany is busy with d-day,italy and the eastern front can they afford to send troops against Spain?

Not enough for an invasion, but with 58 divisions in France in 1944 they can definitely laugh off a Spanish attack and retaliate with bombers and the like. Just as important, of course, is the fact that Franco has nothing to gain. The Allies wouldn't give him French colonies or anything for his ineffectual participation.
 

jahenders

Banned
What if Spain had declare war on germany in 1944 just after d-day happen in a agrement for some historical territory in morocco and france

Their best bet is probably to wait until a few months after D-Day when the Germans start pulling forces out of Southern France and the Allies are pushing that way. They might have helped operation Dragoon somewhat if they declared war and launched some diversionary attacks (pulling attention away from the Dragoon beaches). But, it would have been easiest for the Spanish to wait until the Germans are already pulling back.
 
Germans are in absolutely no position to invade Spain at this point. At all. The only formations they have in the general area are static garrison divisions, mostly concentrated on the coastal ports

They are in no position to bomb Spain either, as the LW in the west has been shot out of the sky by the intense Allied effort concentrated against it, and the handful of aircraft that remained were up north engaged against the Allies, or were in the Reich itself.

That said, the only marginal contribution I could see Spain making would be logistical, i.e. an additional way to supply the troops used during Op. Dragoon. At a stretch, assuming the Allies have far worse prior experiences with naval landings, I could maybe see them opening up Barcelona to the troops OTL slated for Dragoon, and having them advance from there.

As to what they would get? A promise by the Allies not to attempt regime change would be appealing, along with a recognition of their borders (including colonies). A discount on oil and food imports would do wonders for a Spanish economy still in ruins after the civil war, as would inclusion in the post-war Marshall Program.

As it was, Franco severely misjudged the balance of power and hedged his bets wrt Hitler way longer than necessary.
 

ben0628

Banned
Probably Italy all over again. I also don't think Franco would want allied troops in his country, and the allies would rather land in Northern France because it makes more sense logistically.
 

ben0628

Banned
A more interesting scenario is Spain joins allies in 1942 under the conditions that they get a shit ton of lend lease, they get Gibraltar, and they get Libya.

In return, they allow allied troops to land in Spanish ports during Operation Torch and make their way to the Pyrenees before the Germans can react. At this point Portugal would also join the allies as well.

You could see a 1943 invasion of southern France.

(This scenario is similar to the previous posters but at a slightly more earlier date which would make more sense).
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
What if Spain had declare war on germany in 1944 just after d-day happen in a agrement for some historical territory in morocco and france

De Gaulle would never, ever, ever accept this.

Germany runs them over. They've still got enough strength to do so, and Spain isn't recovered from the civil war. No reason for Franco to do this.

Germany invade and overrun Spain AFTER D-Day? No way.
 

ben0628

Banned
Churchill would never consent to giving up Gibraltar under any circumstances.

Don't nessecarily agree. He definitely wouldn't want to. But if Franco can pressure FDR and get on his good side, FDR then pressure Churchill. Or Franco could be an ass and threaten to join the Axis (he's bluffing of course but they don't know that).

Not only that, but in 1942, the allies weren't garuanteed to win yet at this point. They would be more likely to make a deal with the devil now than later.
 
Spain declaring war on Germany AFTER D-Day has the exact same effect as the OTL the Turkish declaration of war in 1945 had.

In other words, exactly nothing. It doesn't even affect future diplomacy between the United States and Spain, any more than Turkey joining the Allies affected diplomacy between the US and Turkey, because Cold War considerations affected both cases.

To get Spain to join the Allies before D Day is more than a bit implausible, given that Spanish troops were fighting with Russia and Spanish ports were being used by the u-boats. Most alternative history speculation is about Franco throwing in (well, more than he did) with the Axis, not the Allies.
 
A more interesting scenario is Spain joins allies in 1942 under the conditions that they get a shit ton of lend lease, they get Gibraltar, and they get Libya.

In return, they allow allied troops to land in Spanish ports during Operation Torch and make their way to the Pyrenees before the Germans can react. At this point Portugal would also join the allies as well.

You could see a 1943 invasion of southern France.

(This scenario is similar to the previous posters but at a slightly more earlier date which would make more sense).


I like this.

Maybe not Gibraltar, but Libya and French dominated Morocco.


This increases german supply lines while giving allied forces friendly ports to disembark at.


Also, a landing in Norther France is in no way ruled out by this.

And would be easier if significant German forces are pulled to southern France.
 
Spain is a logisitcal sinkhole of the Allies. Its ports were not as capable as the French or Netherlands ports. Its railways suffered from three years of war & decades of marginal economic growth. A general rule of thumb for industrial Europe is a common single track railway can support approx 100,000 men or 3-4 divisions with corps support. Like Turkey the Spanish railways may have been adequate to support 25,000 per line. Looking at the map it appears there are only two such main rail lines crossing the Pyrenees. It took some 24 months to rebuild the Persian railway to what was needed for capacity. Ten months after the landings in Normandy the Allies were just starting to get a grip on restoring the Franco/Belgian railways. If the Allies land in Spain in November 1942, they might have a few key trunk lines up to snuff by early 1944. Or not.

Automotive roads were far worse.
 
A more interesting scenario is Spain joins allies in 1942 under the conditions that they get a shit ton of lend lease, they get Gibraltar, and they get Libya.

In return, they allow allied troops to land in Spanish ports during Operation Torch and make their way to the Pyrenees before the Germans can react. At this point Portugal would also join the allies as well.

You could see a 1943 invasion of southern France.

(This scenario is similar to the previous posters but at a slightly more earlier date which would make more sense).
I too like this option much better, as the allies can make an unopposed landing in Spanish ports, and play a waiting game with the Germans having to try to fight and supply an army across the boarder mountains, and in the face of all the fighters the allies can bring to bear against the local Luftwaffe forces, and bombing any German supplies attempting to make it to the front.

Definately would not try to go on the offensive for many months, instead massively improve the roads and rail systems, stockpile huge amounts of supplies, and build airbases everywhere, just like in England. Let the Germans see vast numbers of troops massing along the Spanish boarder with Vichy France, forcing them to either invade Vichy, or wait until the allies are feeling up to the task.

My money would be on the Germans launching a pre-emptive attact, and then the happy situation of all Vichy forces joining the allies intact!
 
Spain is a logisitcal sinkhole of the Allies. Its ports were not as capable as the French or Netherlands ports. Its railways suffered from three years of war & decades of marginal economic growth. A general rule of thumb for industrial Europe is a common single track railway can support approx 100,000 men or 3-4 divisions with corps support. Like Turkey the Spanish railways may have been adequate to support 25,000 per line. Looking at the map it appears there are only two such main rail lines crossing the Pyrenees. It took some 24 months to rebuild the Persian railway to what was needed for capacity. Ten months after the landings in Normandy the Allies were just starting to get a grip on restoring the Franco/Belgian railways. If the Allies land in Spain in November 1942, they might have a few key trunk lines up to snuff by early 1944. Or not.

Automotive roads were far worse.
I agree, but this is what Franco would get for free from the allies, a massive effort to rapidly improve Spanish transportation networks, port capacity and effeciency,
so that they could sustain and build up their own logistical capabilities. Spain has a broken economy and lots of infrastructure that needs modernization/repair? Get the allies to pay for it all, in addition for whatever else you care to ask for, for letting them in.

The allies could sit in Spain, and threaten a second front, without having to attack the Vichy, but giving the Germans no choice but to do so themselves. And when they do invade Vichy, they will be giving themselves a front at the Spanish boarder, and 1,000's more partisans behind them.
 
I like this thread! Looking at the maps, a Neutral Vichy is the best thing the allies can get, for as long as it takes the Germans to decide to attack. So no combat in 1942 unless the Germans want to attack Vichy.
 
I think the most plausible scenario is Spain joining the Allies in late 1944. In return they would get some financial aid from the US and get to be on the winning side. They could probably make modest contributions in terms of several divisions and the use of airfields for maritime patrols, I think before this date their participation could actually be a negative to the allied cause.
 
I agree, but this is what Franco would get for free from the allies, a massive effort to rapidly improve Spanish transportation networks, port capacity and effeciency,
so that they could sustain and build up their own logistical capabilities. Spain has a broken economy and lots of infrastructure that needs modernization/repair? Get the allies to pay for it all, in addition for whatever else you care to ask for, for letting them in.

The allies could sit in Spain, and threaten a second front, without having to attack the Vichy, but giving the Germans no choice but to do so themselves. And when they do invade Vichy, they will be giving themselves a front at the Spanish boarder, and 1,000's more partisans behind them.

Sort of a expensive diversion. I does deny critical Iberian Wolfram ore/Tungsten to Germany, along with some other items. I also tips Petains government a bit more towards the Allies. Hmmm.. Maybe I need to set out the game board again....
 
Top