Allied postwar policy treats Japan the same way as West Germany

I'm not too clear on this, but what I'm thinking of is:

1. Allowing Japan to eventually have a military, instead of completely forbidding them in the constitution and only allowing them a self-defense force instead.

2. Something similar to denazification.

Could these policies have been enacted? And if so, would the two follow? If the Allied command could purge the Imperialists more thoroughly, maybe they'd be more willing to give Japan a military a decade down the road? Especially if this is a timeline where the Soviets invaded the northernmost islands.
 
2. Something similar to denazification.

You mean how we made German civilians feel collectively guilty for the Final Solution and all the crimes of Nazism, while we put actual Nazis with rivers of innocent blood on the hands back into governmental positions in West Germany, but it was supposedly 'ok' because if all Germans were equally guilty of the Final Solution then these guys that actually played a real role in it who we now need are no less guilty then every other German?
 
Whereas in Japan the civilian populace never felt collective guilt, and as a consequence there's a lack of public acceptance or knowledge of their wartime atrocities.
 
Whereas in Japan the civilian populace never felt collective guilt, and as a consequence there's a lack of public acceptance or knowledge of their wartime atrocities.

That caused Japan to become a warmongering aggressive military power again didn't it?

Oh, wait no. Japan still is amazingly pacifist compared to its neighbors. In fact personally I don't believe Japan's relationship with China or any other country in the region would be a lick different if they self flagellated like the Germans do and will likely for as long as there is a Germany.
 
Hmm. Germany-as-Japan and Japan-as-Germany would both be really interesting. Only you need a unified Germany and a divided Japan. Say D-Day happens in '43 and we meet the Soviets a ways past the Oder (and this becomes the German-Polish border), but we and the Russians launch a bloody joint invasion of Japan in '44 and they get Hokkaido and half of Honshu (and part of Tokyo). Heck, even have a weird alt 4-power thing where Nationalist China, the UK, the US and the USSR all have occupation zones, with Korea as an Austria analogue.
 
We can have a divided japan like that unless this joint invasion leads to most of the Japanese, and how could the USSR pull it off? either way you probably have the ruins of Japan settled but by whom.
 
I just want to find a justification for a stronger East Asian equivalent to NATO. Then I wanted speculation on the societal/political differences in alt-Japan and alt-West Germany. Now I want to see a scenario based on Mr.J's parallel inversion of Cold War situations. Though maybe France would be occupying Japan instead of the UK. Or a joint-Anglo-French-Dutch zone?
 

DaveH

Banned
Hmm.......I think one could argue that the difference between a "Self-Defense Force" and a "Military" is largely semantic,but I also think that the kamikazi fanaticism with which the Japanese military conducted operations put something of a scare into the Allies,and likely we were at some pains to make it appear as though Japan had been entirely disarmed,even though it was not.That West Germany's military was so described probably has a lot to do with the Soviet hijacking of East Germany once the war ended,and the Red Army being right next door without a Sea of Japan in between probably made the Germans look like more reasonable folks,once the Springtime For Hitler was over.

I'm not sure that there could be an equivalent to de-Nazification in Japan.It's true that the Emperor was and is venerated as in ways a divine figure,but Hirohito was never regarded as either policymaker or administrator;he reigned rather than ruled,and the Japanese would not have held him personally responsible for either losing the war or for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.Japan's unconditional surrender had one condition:The Emperor stays.The Allies(mostly us) wisely allowed the Japanese to save face,and they(also wisely) did not resist the occupation.After some war crimes trials,the Japanese de-Nazified themselves.
 

RousseauX

Donor
That caused Japan to become a warmongering aggressive military power again didn't it?

Oh, wait no. Japan still is amazingly pacifist compared to its neighbors. In fact personally I don't believe Japan's relationship with China or any other country in the region would be a lick different if they self flagellated like the Germans do and will likely for as long as there is a Germany.
No, but it certainly does stir up a lot of trouble between Japan and everyone of its East Asian neighbors on a regular basis!
 
No, but it certainly does stir up a lot of trouble between Japan and everyone of its East Asian neighbors on a regular basis!

When every so often a military or political offical denies Japan during World War 2 committed any war crimes or used women as sex slaves which does happen from time to time it stirs up trouble yes, but there is a huge world of difference between historical denial and forcing on a population the concept of collective guilt that every last citizen was collectively guilty of all the worst crimes of a regime.
 
When every so often a military or political offical denies Japan during World War 2 committed any war crimes or used women as sex slaves which does happen from time to time it stirs up trouble yes, but there is a huge world of difference between historical denial and forcing on a population the concept of collective guilt that every last citizen was collectively guilty of all the worst crimes of a regime.

I would hardly say it was a bad thing in the long run. Nationalism is practically a dead concept in Germany nowadays; People who would be far-right but still be viable political forces nowadays are the farthest of the fringe in Germany. The problem isn't whether we might have gone a bit overboard, it's that we need to denationalize everywhere else in the world as well.
 
That caused Japan to become a warmongering aggressive military power again didn't it?

Oh, wait no. Japan still is amazingly pacifist compared to its neighbors. In fact personally I don't believe Japan's relationship with China or any other country in the region would be a lick different if they self flagellated like the Germans do and will likely for as long as there is a Germany.

I wonder if a KMT victory in the Chinese Civil War and no Korean War would change Japanese attitudes? Maybe Japan would be much more willing to admit the nastiness of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War if China wasn't a Cold War enemy of Japan?
 
Whereas in Japan the civilian populace never felt collective guilt, and as a consequence there's a lack of public acceptance or knowledge of their wartime atrocities.

Actually, MANY, a good lot of japaneses, admit the facts. The rightwingers may bemoan, WAY more japaneses than you think admit it all.
 
I would hardly say it was a bad thing in the long run. Nationalism is practically a dead concept in Germany nowadays; People who would be far-right but still be viable political forces nowadays are the farthest of the fringe in Germany. The problem isn't whether we might have gone a bit overboard, it's that we need to denationalize everywhere else in the world as well.

Only I don't believe history should be used as a tool to enforce the political goals of those that believe nationalism and patriotism are good or evil.
 
Last edited:
I wonder if a KMT victory in the Chinese Civil War and no Korean War would change Japanese attitudes? Maybe Japan would be much more willing to admit the nastiness of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War if China wasn't a Cold War enemy of Japan?

The same Japanese political forces who are unrepentant with war crimes in China are equally unrepentant with atrocities in Korea, the Philippines, and even against westerners.
 
The same Japanese political forces who are unrepentant with war crimes in China are equally unrepentant with atrocities in Korea, the Philippines, and even against westerners.

True but how much more does the US pressure to keep those views on the fringe without the largest victim of Showa imperialism becoming a US enemy less than a decade after the war?
 
True but how much more does the US pressure to keep those views on the fringe without the largest victim of Showa imperialism becoming a US enemy less than a decade after the war?

The largest victim of Nazism was also the dominant enemy of the US as well.
 
Top