allied landing in denmark

I hadn't gotten a chance to go after this yet

Denmark? Really?

Just no; what ports would that be intent on capturing exactly Odense and Coppenhagen involve going through massive minefields and the fucking skaggerack in the later case into the teeth of 1600 German home defense aircraft.... that's not a launch at darkness and strike at dawn type operation; some part of that op is going to end up in considerable broad daylight with the Germans noticing before they land. Denmark has difficult to cross (in the face of organized opposition) water obstacles and can be rapidly reinforced by mobile divisions from the pas de calais and the low countries; plus troops in Germany itself

The ammo/fuel/replacement stream will be much slower and less secure which will delay progress and lead to a threat of the Germans botteling up the beachhead which with tactical and strategic insanity they nearly did to the normandy beachead


bah, they will build a pipeline, a shuttle service and just use more air transports... the ports they will build fast (2 weeks for something like rotterdam) and the germans will learn about the invasion only 2 months after the begining... :D


as far as the invasion was mentioned, they try to invade the western part of the danish coast, so i asked about harbors and the mudflat... do you think they want to invade kopenhagen?:eek:

why not hamburg? at last this would be a harbor....:rolleyes:
 
I hadn't gotten a chance to go after this yet

Denmark? Really?

Just no; what ports would that be intent on capturing exactly Odense and Coppenhagen involve going through massive minefields and the fucking skaggerack in the later case into the teeth of 1600 German home defense aircraft.... that's not a launch at darkness and strike at dawn type operation; some part of that op is going to end up in considerable broad daylight with the Germans noticing before they land. Denmark has difficult to cross (in the face of organized opposition) water obstacles and can be rapidly reinforced by mobile divisions from the pas de calais and the low countries; plus troops in Germany itself

The ammo/fuel/replacement stream will be much slower and less secure which will delay progress and lead to a threat of the Germans botteling up the beachhead which with tactical and strategic insanity they nearly did to the normandy beachead

Everything I've read about the Germans in WW2 from books AND older Danes who lived thru the occupation, tell me that those forces were second string and subpar. No crack troops like in Russia.
 
Everything I've read about the Germans in WW2 from books AND older Danes who lived thru the occupation, tell me that those forces were second string and subpar. No crack troops like in Russia.


Weren't really a lot of 'crack' troops defending Normandy's beaches but that wasn't the concern. The real concern was the troops that could be sent to back them up from elsewhere in the theater, hence the massive deception campaign to convince the Germans it was a diversion combined with the massive bombing effort against the French, Belgian and Dutch Railways. The Allies knew that once the landing took place, they were in a race to see who could build up faster. One which thankfully in the OTL they won.

Problem with landing in Denmark (or on the nameless islands) is you throw away the deception effort as it won't matter if the landing in a diversion or not, the Allied forces would be too close to German soil not to pull their best troops out of France and elsewhere.

Furthermore things like the OKW letting Hitler sleep while the invasion was going on isn't likely to happen in this scenario as any German Officer would be more afraid of being shot for NOT waking Hitler then being browbeaten for waking him should the Allies land in Germany and IIRC Germany considered Denmark a part of their Greater Germany at this point.
 
For the records the only stretch of Denmark's West coast capable of supporting a landing is between the ports of Esbjerg & Thyboron.

South of Esbjerg the waters are to restricted for warships to get close enough to provide firesupport until you hit the German border.
North of Thyboron , you are entering the Skagerrak or landing on the portion of Denmark seperated from the mainland with all the problems of crossing back over.

Of the two ports, Esbjerg is the only one of the two capable of really supporting more then a few divisions and is fortified. I wouldn't be suprised to find that section of coast mined heavily.
 
Weren't really a lot of 'crack' troops defending Normandy's beaches but that wasn't the concern. The real concern was the troops that could be sent to back them up from elsewhere in the theater, hence the massive deception campaign to convince the Germans it was a diversion combined with the massive bombing effort against the French, Belgian and Dutch Railways. The Allies knew that once the landing took place, they were in a race to see who could build up faster. One which thankfully in the OTL they won.

And in any race Germans would have been far behind, thanks to deploying the precious mobile assets in France and Eastern Front. Only armored division in Reich area was SS-PzD Wiking under refurbishment. Deploying mobile units to Northern Germany would have taken weeks during which time Allies would have been able to take firm lodgement in Jutland and in all probability Sjaelland and Lolland too, ready for possible continuation landings which would force vast German redeployement of units to Baltic shores.

Of the two ports, Esbjerg is the only one of the two capable of really supporting more then a few divisions and is fortified. I wouldn't be suprised to find that section of coast mined heavily.

The Allied invasion plan did not rely on capturing ports, as we can remember. Moreover, the first major port captured, Cherbourg, was far away from the front lines which greatly reduced it's effectiveness. Nevertheless, historically the Allies advanced all the way to German border with supplies landed mainly via Mulberry harbors.

After driving through Jutland the various natural harbors in east coast of Jutland become available. Moreover, by isolating Danish isles with multitude of naval forces available they would become available for transshipment.

But, more ideal than landing on Jutland west coast might be capture of North Jutland isle and drive south, while continuing immediately with capture of Sjaelland which was practically undefended.

Again, Normandy was route of least risk. The historical option does not make ATL possibilities impossible or even worse.
 
Guys, I think we've slightly misunderstood what the OP meant by an "Allied landing in Denmark". I believe what he really intended was this:

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This plan actually seems ingenious...but would require a POD around 1 January 1936, at the very least.

(It would also require Stalin to build at least a couple Yamato-sized super heavy BBs in Leningrad, but why would he not do that?)
 
Ah, Hearts Of Iron 2. we meet again.

The OP meant it for the allies though, not the USSR.

And if anything is ASB, its that.
 
Jukra, the Mulberries and the beaches were a stopgap really - the intention was always to grab a port. Antwerp was captured intact, but the approaches weren't taken until late October 1944 IIRC. Once Antwerp was taken the supply shortages that had forced the Allied advance to falter were taken care of.
 
Everything I've read about the Germans in WW2 from books AND older Danes who lived thru the occupation, tell me that those forces were second string and subpar. No crack troops like in Russia.

They had a weak corps on actual occupation duty, otherwise Denmark was part of the atlantic wall, and the ports where fortified with infantry in it... the problem is that there are fast divisions in the low countries who would arrive on scene fairly quickly (less vulnerable to allied airpower than in normandy due to larger flak presence; ie guns brought up from the ruhr; and larger LW presence) and have a good chance of bottling up the invasion
 
Guys, I think we've slightly misunderstood what the OP meant by an "Allied landing in Denmark". I believe what he really intended was this:

This plan actually seems ingenious...but would require a POD around 1 January 1936, at the very least.

(It would also require Stalin to build at least a couple Yamato-sized super heavy BBs in Leningrad, but why would he not do that?)

I like that idea... even if it's nearly impossible. Landings in Poland or East Germany might work, but by then the Germans will have wiped out the last vestiges of the Black Sea Fleet.
 
The Front would be much narrower... the Jutland penninsula is much narrower than France! Perfect for a War of Attrition (tm)! You could land on the north Jutland Island or perhaps on the Wadden Sea Islands, build up your forces there, and then cross the Limfjord or Wadden Sea after you have blasted any German buildup opposite your landing point!

:D:D:D:D:D

I don't accept any arguments against my plan.
 
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