Allied Italy in WWII

[Hannibal.Caesar]

How can we get Italy to be on the Allied side in WWII? I assume that would mean we'd have to get rid of Mussolini, which theoretically could have an effect on Hitler and the rise of fascism in Germany.

Would Italy have all that much to contribute to the Allied side? Furthermore, would their mere existence on the other side make the Axis position more difficult? Or would it make it better, considering the Italians' general military incompetence during the war?

 

[Alratan]

How can we get Italy to be on the Allied side in WWII? I assume that would mean we'd have to get rid of Mussolini, which theoretically could have an effect on Hitler and the rise of fascism in Germany.

No at all. Mussolini was originally aligned with Britain and France against Germany, but the fallout over Abyssinia destroyed the relationship. All you need is for the Western press to be distracted and for the Hoare-Laval plan to succeed.

Would Italy have all that much to contribute to the Allied side? Furthermore, would their mere existence on the other side make the Axis position more difficult? Or would it make it better, considering the Italians' general military incompetence during the war?

Yes, it would massively help the Allied side. Even if events proceed so that the French army is defeated (very unlikely), then the existence of a friendly country to retreat too and with the French Empire un-threatened, then France probably fights on.

From there, it would be very hard for Germany to fight through the Alps, so Italy would be secure. Japan couldn't risk war with the Med open and France still fighting, so there would be no war in the Far East. When Hitler attacks the USSR and the US enters the war (as it will almost inevitably do, even without Japan), the Allies have a much better jumping off point than in OTL to attack Germany and liberate France, particularly as they can then bribed the previously non-belligerant Greeks+Yugoslavians+Bulgarians to enter the war on the side of the Allies.

 

[Mr. Evangelical]

Maybe Germany not having peace with Italy and an attempt to invade, I would see an Italy on the Allies side.

Another option could be Spain somehow joining The Axis, Italy, feeling endangered, joins The Allies.

 

[Slamet]

If Balbo had risen to power instead of Mussolini, the relations with Nazi Germany could have been worse. Balbo was more popular than Mussolini and he had a cooler head. He also was a German-hater. Of course the POD has to be when Balbo was popular.

Or you could have Badoglio.

 

[bard32]

How can we get Italy to be on the Allied side in WWII? I assume that would mean we'd have to get rid of Mussolini, which theoretically could have an effect on Hitler and the rise of fascism in Germany.

Would Italy have all that much to contribute to the Allied side? Furthermore, would their mere existence on the other side make the Axis position more difficult? Or would it make it better, considering the Italians' general military incompetence during the war?

The POD being September 1943, Marshal Pietro Badoligio still replaces Mussolini who's thrown into a prison in Rome. Badoligio approaches the Allies
and says that he wants to bring Italy to the Allied side. Hitler throws a hissy
fit.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

The POD being September 1943, Marshal Pietro Badoligio still replaces Mussolini who's thrown into a prison in Rome. Badoligio approaches the Allies
and says that he wants to bring Italy to the Allied side. Hitler throws a hissy
fit.

Another pointless post courtesy of Bard32.

My two cents? IF Italy was part of the Allies, the main effect will be felt in the Far East. Even if France falls, the Med is relatively safe, so naval forces can be sent to Far East. I think Japan would still attack- if the oil embargo happens as OTL (and this POD shouldn't change that) then they will still face the OTL options of attack, or acquiesce.

Whether the additional forces actually help in Far East, or simply add to the carnage the Japanese caused at the start of the campaign depends a lot on the details of exactly what, and who is sent.

 

[bard32]

Another pointless post courtesy of Bard32.

My two cents? IF Italy was part of the Allies, the main effect will be felt in the Far East. Even if France falls, the Med is relatively safe, so naval forces can be sent to Far East. I think Japan would still attack- if the oil embargo happens as OTL (and this POD shouldn't change that) then they will still face the OTL options of attack, or acquiesce.

Whether the additional forces actually help in Far East, or simply add to the carnage the Japanese caused at the start of the campaign depends a lot on the details of exactly what, and who is sent.

The last part was pointless. The first part had a point. Italy was part of the
Central Powers, (officially,) the Triple Alliance, until 1915. Mussolini wanted
to recreate the Roman Empire. The reason for the March on Rome was simple. Mussolini thought Italy had gotten the short end of the stick in World
War I. My point about Mussolini being put in a prison in Rome was so he would be out of reach of SS Sturmbahnfurher Otto Skorzeny. No Skorzeny
no puppet state in Northern Italy for Mussolini to preside over.

 

[Hannibal.Caesar]

The last part was pointless. The first part had a point. Italy was part of the
Central Powers, (officially,) the Triple Alliance, until 1915. Mussolini wanted
to recreate the Roman Empire. The reason for the March on Rome was simple. Mussolini thought Italy had gotten the short end of the stick in World
War I. My point about Mussolini being put in a prison in Rome was so he would be out of reach of SS Sturmbahnfurher Otto Skorzeny. No Skorzeny
no puppet state in Northern Italy for Mussolini to preside over.

OK, I'm feeling a bit caustic so I'm going to have fun picking this apart. Firstly, your comment about Italy being a part of the Central Powers (-ish) is pointless. This is a thread about Italy being on the Allied side in WWII, and has little to nothing to do with WWI.

I'm sure most, if not all, members who traffic the post-1900 forum on this website know the reasons for Mussolini's March on Rome. Please do not patronize us. You, on the other hand, seem to ignore the myriad reasons for the March--there was no single, overwhelming reason. A few include Mussolini's wish for cementing his power after his squadristis became Italian government's strongmen, Victor Emmanuel III's fear of a civil war breaking out in his country, and the machinations of the bourgeoisie who felt that Mussolini could be controlled.

Finally, by the time the Italian rump state was created by Hitler in WWII, the Germans could have cared less about Il Duce. He was a lightning rod for the few remaining Italian fascists, and perhaps they felt that his leadership of the German-occupied territory would gain them some sense of legitimacy on behalf of the Italians. Mussolini himself wanted to retire, and only agreed to Hitler's plan when he threatened to destroy Milan, Genoa, and Turin (according to Wiki).

And let's not forget that Bard's entire post has made this thread go off-track. Thanks, Bard.

 

[Markus]

How can we get Italy to be on the Allied side in WWII?

OK, in the early 30´s an Italian geologist explores the Libyan desert and finds … OIL! And a f…ing lot of it.

No I’m Benny M. and what would I do with my new found wealth?
Nummero uno: Once the oil money starts flowing it is spend to improve the infrastructure in southern Italy. Like the “Benito Mussolini Railroad Line” connecting Rome with Naples and Taranto/Reggio Calabria. Top speed 125 mph. The industrialized North will get his share in the form of increased arms production.
Nummero due: Hold elections! With all that oil money a sure win for me.

Than there is this war. Several actually. I figure the one with Ethiopia is superfluous. Who needs military glory to get public support? Not me, I have oil money, I can buy all the public support I want. And this war in 39 is something Italy better stays away from. Probably something to gain, but why take the risk? Especially with my WW1 background in mind.
No, I stay neutral, reinforce Libya to make sure the Brits don’t try something with my oil wells, because they don’t want me sell it to my buddy Adolf. Of course I sell the Brits all the oil they can pay for, too.
Things change in December 1941 when Germany is stopped in Russia and the USA enters the war. Now it looks like Germany is going to loose and oil money or not a world dominated by the USA and the f…ing Commies is not a nice place for a fascist dictator like me, so I have to take action:

December 8th 1942: Operation Torch

Convoys with troops from the USA and the UK secretly slipped into the Med, sailed west and now arrive in …Naples, Rome and Sardinia where the people are somewhat surprised to learn the fascist ruled kingdom of Italy is the latest addition to the United Nations. By the way: I´m totally flattered that my style is so popular in the US Militray. There was me on my white steed, helmet on, cavalry boots and than this Major-General climbed out of the landing craft, almost exactly dressed like me. Got him a white steed ASAP and he gave me one of his revolvers. Good man!
Don´t look that surprised. Betraying the Germans in time of war is an honoured Italian tradition –ok, it was the Austrians actually, but Adolf is one- and this time it´s a much safer bet than in WW1.

How does it end? With me dying of old age in a bed –hopefully while at it with some hot chick like Clara Petacci- and being remembered as Italy´s greatest and most beloved leader.