Allied Invasion Of Japan In 1945, No A-bomb Used!

As a reminder, most of the German "soldiers" fighting the Soviets and the democracies in 1945 were the Volksturm, the German robbing the cradle and the grave. If Germany was willing to go so far and lasted so long as it did, I still don't see why the Japanese would be any *less* willing. As I said, they started earlier and finished later than the Germans did.....

Because they're already at the Volksturm level? As in, prior to whatever is raised for the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps from the remaining population as of the invasion.

So being able to go ANOTHER year, two years, three years with increasing burned out military resources seems increasingly unlikely.

So if Germany is willing to go about six years, not fighting to the death (stated and emphasized for contrast with what is being expected of Japan), and Japan has been fighting how long already (by the start of WWII) + WWII, we're being asked to believe that Japan will be able to push it to the next level of insane - instead of six years for Germany, it would do what, ten? Twelve?

Sources on German schoolgirls in the Volksturm units (which I know very little about) would be appreciated, to anyone of those who know more on WWII than I do.

Also, I have to ask our culture experts why its being assumed that Japanese devotion to the Emperor as a living God is 100% at this point. As in, not only belief that it is true, but it meaning unconditional devotion to the point of again, fanaticism.

Maybe its just me, but I find it kind of interesting that they'd bother to tell schoolgirls that "And if fighting for the ONE TRUE EMPERAH isn't enough, which is true of 99.999~% of the population, you'll be killed & raped anyway."

That sounds like the kind of propaganda a state that can't rely on that belief however powerful it is being sufficient would use.
 
Because they're already at the Volksturm level? As in, prior to whatever is raised for the Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps from the remaining population as of the invasion.

So being able to go ANOTHER year, two years, three years with increasing burned out military resources seems increasingly unlikely.

So if Germany is willing to go about six years, not fighting to the death (stated and emphasized for contrast with what is being expected of Japan), and Japan has been fighting how long already (by the start of WWII) + WWII, we're being asked to believe that Japan will be able to push it to the next level of insane - instead of six years for Germany, it would do what, ten? Twelve?

Sources on German schoolgirls in the Volksturm units (which I know very little about) would be appreciated, to anyone of those who know more on WWII than I do.

Also, I have to ask our culture experts why its being assumed that Japanese devotion to the Emperor as a living God is 100% at this point. As in, not only belief that it is true, but it meaning unconditional devotion to the point of again, fanaticism.

Maybe its just me, but I find it kind of interesting that they'd bother to tell schoolgirls that "And if fighting for the ONE TRUE EMPERAH isn't enough, which is true of 99.999~% of the population, you'll be killed & raped anyway."

That sounds like the kind of propaganda a state that can't rely on that belief however powerful it is being sufficient would use.

I didn't say they'd last long or be very effective. I simply noted that they would in fact put up rather more of a fight than people seem to think. The Allies won't have a Russo-German 1918 war of "marching unstopped between villages." Japan won't last any more than 2 years at maximum and that's assuming the Allied leaders get a sudden case of the Stupids. Those troops, however, on the Kanto Plain like the Soviets at Kursk will know where and when the Allies will hit them and the landings there will be extremely bloody and a slogging match more like Anzio or Salerno than much of the Pacific War.
 
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Hkelukka

Banned
I never said its absolute.

I said it is absolute enough in many enough people to effectively force the others to comply. Soviet Commisar style. When the guys with the guns tell you to charge at the enemy with a knife in hand or they kill your family, you generally do it. And since as a rule the military police and special units are always best fed and equipped anyone refusing would be beheaded on the spot.

You dont charge the enemy when told, you get executed, simple and very Bushido. I would be willing to concede that 70% of the people in the Japanese civilian forces would not fight at all or surrender at first contact and only 30% would fight, that would be 10 million militia soldiers.

Most Japanese probably wouldnt believe the emperor is divine, but a sufficiently high number would to make it a good PR point, not to mention the fact that even if he is not divine then turning your back on someone you, your family and ancestors have served in some capacity for over 1000 years would be very difficult at this point.

To illustrate my point:

Total Killed/missing Wounded Captured
6,300,000 1,326,076 85,600 30,000

Thats the total WW2 statistics of Japanese losses. I stand by my statement that anywhere between 5-25 million Japanese would fight to the bitter end, costing the invasion army about 1.5-4+ million dead.

When you think of Japan Pre-downfall think of Germany in 1944 pre-Normandy. If neccesary they would resist for months, potentially a few years. Japan was lucky enough to have a sane leader, Germany was not. Thats what it really came down to.
 
I didn't say they'd last long or be very effective. I simply noted that they would in fact put up rather more of a fight than people seem to think. The Allies won't have a Russo-German 1918 war of "marching unstopped between villages."

Yeah, even if the Japanese civilian population is assumed to be apathetic, there are too many soldiers (for a given definition of soldiers) - the very least that can be expected is several months of very intense fighting.

Not necessarily oceans and oceans of blood, but assuming that the Japanese fight to the end at least as much as Lee did...yeah.

Lee being picked on as an example of someone not specifically aiming to fight to the death but sure acting like it.

Hkelukka said:
I never said its absolute.

I said it is absolute enough in many enough people to effectively force the others to comply. Soviet Commisar style. When the guys with the guns tell you to charge at the enemy with a knife in hand or they kill your family, you generally do it. And since as a rule the military police and special units are always best fed and equipped anyone refusing would be beheaded on the spot.

You dont charge the enemy when told, you get executed, simple and very Bushido. I would be willing to concede that 70% of the people in the Japanese civilian forces would not fight at all or surrender at first contact and only 30% would fight, that would be 10 million militia soldiers.

And where does one get the commissars, in absence of a better term, to make that many people fight? That's a lot of people to keep in line (in multiple senses).

Most Japanese probably wouldnt believe the emperor is divine, but a sufficiently high number would to make it a good PR point, not to mention the fact that even if he is not divine then turning your back on someone you, your family and ancestors have served in some capacity for over 1000 years would be very difficult at this point.
Refusing to fight and turning your back on the emperor are not the same thing unless he's commanding that one fight. "Serving the emperor in some capacity" does not translate into a form of military service.


To illustrate my point:

Total Killed/missing Wounded Captured
6,300,000 1,326,076 85,600 30,000

Thats the total WW2 statistics of Japanese losses. I stand by my statement that anywhere between 5-25 million Japanese would fight to the bitter end, costing the invasion army about 1.5-4+ million dead.
What happened to the 75% or so not killed (or missing)/wounded/captured? Seems kind of low for military forces fighting to the death to have only 20% or so killed. Not saying that means they didn't, just that a lot of these guys are not ending up as casualties on that table for some reason, which is interesting.

And why are we assuming that because the military fought like this that there will be another 5-25 million civilians who are not trained and indoctrinated the way the military was (above and beyond the usual social stuff, in other words) who will?

Fight? Sure. I can believe that the average Volksturm level unit will fight. And be overrun. And surrender, because the people most fanatically devoted are going to be the first to get killed. So unless the average member of one of these units - using the German term because the PCFC is something I can't say without thinking of names like Six Black Swans Lake, and other fun to say oddities.

The Patriotic Citizens Fighting Corps is not funny stuff, even in a very dark sense of funny.

Back on topic and much more doubtfully:
Why is it assumed that the Japanese will inflict so many casualties? Schoolgirls with awls are...well, pushing the limits of "its not the weapon, its the wielder". Even matchlock muskets aren't that much better.
 
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Yeah, even if the Japanese civilian population is assumed to be apathetic, there are too many soldiers (for a given definition of soldiers) - the very least that can be expected is several months of very intense fighting.

Not necessarily oceans and oceans of blood, but assuming that the Japanese fight to the end at least as much as Lee did...yeah.

Lee being picked on as an example of someone not specifically aiming to fight to the death but sure acting like it.

In some ways General Model might be a more contemporary comparison. The Germans didn't fight nearly as hard as Hitler wanted to, but face it: when the Soviets were 70 miles from Berlin that was the time to surrender, not when they're marching into your capital after 48 hours of a bloodbath that's entirely pointless.
 
In some ways General Model might be a more contemporary comparison. The Germans didn't fight nearly as hard as Hitler wanted to, but face it: when the Soviets were 70 miles from Berlin that was the time to surrender, not when they're marching into your capital after 48 hours of a bloodbath that's entirely pointless.

Well, there had to be some Lee-bashing to keep his fanboys mad :D, but yeah.

One interesting issue would be how the Emperor responds to the invasion. He can, if I'm not mistaken, order a surrender at any time - that is, he doesn't need to consult with anyone.

Actually doing it until at least after the casualty reports are in seems highly unlikely, though.
 
Well, there had to be some Lee-bashing to keep his fanboys mad :D, but yeah.

One interesting issue would be how the Emperor responds to the invasion. He can, if I'm not mistaken, order a surrender at any time - that is, he doesn't need to consult with anyone.

Actually doing it until at least after the casualty reports are in seems highly unlikely, though.

A more interesting issue is what happens if he *does* issue this. If some units decide to ignore the Emperor altogether, Japanese politics just got a big damn monkey wrench in the works.....
 
A more interesting issue is what happens if he *does* issue this. If some units decide to ignore the Emperor altogether, Japanese politics just got a big damn monkey wrench in the works.....

Yeah. As if this already wasn't a surefire Ends Badly For Japan scenario...

:eek:

Not that the a-bombs were a good thing, but at least the post-war consequences were physical rather than social. This possibility is definitely social, which is probably even worse.

How that's possible, I don't know, other than the there is no limit to horror in this kind of war.

Okay, so the example enemy is a German.

http://www.ahajokes.com/war029.html

But its too relevant to not post.
 
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Yeah. As if this already wasn't a surefire Ends Badly For Japan scenario...

:eek:

Not that the a-bombs were a good thing, but at least the post-war consequences were physical rather than social. This possibility is definitely social, which is probably even worse.

How that's possible, I don't know, other than the there is no limit to horror in this kind of war.

Okay, so the example enemy is a German.

http://www.ahajokes.com/war029.html

But its too relevant to not post.

Pretty much. If the Emperor does issue a decree like that and a good-sized chunk of the IJA soldiers ignore it, resolving *that* could be as dicey as say....Greece.....:eek:
 
I'm afraid to find out the answer to this, but how so?

For thing you've got some diehards who'd already be fighting anyway who may reject any surrender dickered by the other factions. Bitter-enders, in other words. You'd probably have an end of WWII for a Japanese Civil War same as happened in Greece, and that would mean Japan, not Korea, is the first ground theater of the Cold War......:eek:
 
Commissar,
Judging by the response to this post, most people seem to find my Hiberno-English way of doing things, quite coherent, thank you!
 
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