Allied Forces in Korea, 1970s-1990s...

MacCaulay

Banned
...I was designing a wargame recently and the choice of forces got my mind wandering.

Now, in your Average Second Korean War-type Situation, the conflict lasts anywhere from two weeks to two months, with a runup of hostilities that lasts about a month before that.

So supposing that happens and a Second Korean War breaks out on the peninsula sometimes in either 1973, 1985, 1991, 1997, or 2003 respectively, what forces are available from other nations besides the US and South Korea that would be physically and politically able to provide either support or actual combat elements to the battle?
 
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some thoughts

The Philippine army, depending on year, could probably commit some troops - most likely in '97, though possibly in '91 and '73. Probably not in '85, though.

I imagine the Aussies committing troops under most circumstances.

Taiwan might consider committing troops in '73.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Mac, the Renaissance man.

Aw...it was actually a scenario using a '70s game engine. Hate to take the wind out of your sails. But I'll still take your admiration if there's any left. :D




So what units would be available from these countries folks are throwing out? How fast do you figure they could be spun up and shipped to the battle zone and what would they make up?

EDIT: I added 2003 as a date as well.
 
In any scenario, it depends on if the fighting is localized to Korea or if it's part of a wider conflict. However, if it's only fought in Korea, and nobody opens up another front elsewhere, here's what I see happening:

1973: all NATO members (except West Germany, Greece, and France), the Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, and a few Latin American countries

1985: all NATO members (except West Germany), Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, and a few Latin American countries

1991: it would happen while all potential actors still had large forces deployed to the Middle East taking part in DESERT STORM, so the dispatch of forces would be delayed somewhat, and a few countries might not be able to commit, but the list would probably be all NATO members (except Germany), Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, a few East European countries, and a few Latin American countries

1997: all NATO members, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines, a few East European countries, and a few Latin American countries

2003: most NATO members, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, the Philippines, a few former Soviet states, and a few Latin American countries

2010: most NATO members, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines, a few former Soviet states (2 of Ukraine, Georgia, and Azerbaijan), and a few Latin American countries
 
Don't know any specifics, but having a war on the peninsula in '73 would be damned interesting. Perhaps the "Second Korean War" runs long enough to actually become the Second Korean War? I know that the cause of war probably won't effect the actual war game itself to a large degree, since as you've already said, the lead up to the conflict would most likely last at least one month, so readiness isn't a big variable. Still, would be interesting to hear what you're considering as the "tipping point" for a war in '73, as well as '85, '91, '97, and '10. for that matter.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
1973: all NATO members (except West Germany, Greece, and France), the Philippines, Australia, New Zealand, and a few Latin American countries

One could say that France might be up on the list of countries that would be able to lend offensive force quickly, since it's got a carrier force and extensive expeditionary troops in the form of the Foreign Legion.

There were very few NATO countries apart from the US that had significant light infantry/expeditionary forces: we had the Paras in Britain, the Canadian Airborne Regiment, the Foreign Legion and some parachute troops in France.

Any armour might well have to be moved in from it's home bases no matter WHICH time we're talking.
 
The Philippines committed about 2000 to Vietnam in the late '60s, and had committed 7500 (in five battalion combat teams) to South Korea during the first Korean War, so somewhere between those two figures. With a month of lead time, it should be possible to get these troops to Korea, though they'd likely be reliant on American shipping; then again, there's a lot of shipping available, at least in '73 (what with the Vietnam War wrapping up).

Australia committed a peak of 7,672 troops (in three reinforced infantry battalions, and in a 750-man RAAF commitment) to Vietnam in 1969. The First Task Force, a brigade-sized unit, formed the core of this force, and could plausibly form the core of any Australian intervention into Korea. HMAS Sydney would definitely be involved in shipping troops to Korea in '73, as it had been for Vietnam.

Not sure if any NATO forces could show up in a month, especially in '73. Maybe just air force squadrons and light infantry?
 
All NATO members have deployed forces to Afghanistan. Many of these were very small, but they were there nonetheless. Most of them also participated in DESERT STORM. The US and UK would have to do a lot of the logistics, but there's no good reason the smaller NATO powers couldn't deploy troops to Korea.
 
All NATO members have deployed forces to Afghanistan. Many of these were very small, but they were there nonetheless. Most of them also participated in DESERT STORM. The US and UK would have to do a lot of the logistics, but there's no good reason the smaller NATO powers couldn't deploy troops to Korea.

The issue is this - could they get troops to Korea in time to play a meaningful role? It took several months to assemble the forces needed for Desert Storm; the OP gives a month of lead time, plus two weeks to two months for the conflict itself. Not sure that gives enough time to deploy anything from Europe except light troops.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Australia committed a peak of 7,672 troops (in three reinforced infantry battalions, and in a 750-man RAAF commitment) to Vietnam in 1969. The First Task Force, a brigade-sized unit, formed the core of this force, and could plausibly form the core of any Australian intervention into Korea.
I honestly didn't know about that before you posted it. Thanks for that!

All NATO members have deployed forces to Afghanistan. Many of these were very small, but they were there nonetheless. Most of them also participated in DESERT STORM. The US and UK would have to do a lot of the logistics, but there's no good reason the smaller NATO powers couldn't deploy troops to Korea.

The issue is this - could they get troops to Korea in time to play a meaningful role? It took several months to assemble the forces needed for Desert Storm; the OP gives a month of lead time, plus two weeks to two months for the conflict itself. Not sure that gives enough time to deploy anything from Europe except light troops.

Let's give it the full two months of length, so you've basically got 1 month of lead time, plus another month during hostilities that you can move troops in with somewhat less speed due to the fact that the USAF is probably using it's own resources to move in National Guard troops and supplies for the forces in theatre.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Okay...so let's take a different tack at this problem.

How about we try and figure out what forces can be deployed on a 1-week, 1-month, and 2-month notice? At anything more than 2 months, it's not going to be worth it.

One week:

Britain: Parachute Regiment, at least 1 battalion.

Canada: (up to 1992) Airborne Regiment, 2 battalions. (after 1997) JTF2, 1 Battalion. (after 2008) CSOR, 1 battalion.

France: 2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment, 2 battalions.

Australia: It depends on the years, like Canada. There were times that I believe Australia had no parachute/light infantry capability, which is the kind of troops that could get there in one week.

Japan: That's a can of worms that could kill us or save us. :rolleyes:

other NATO members: Italy doesn't have an expeditionary capacity, because it honestly never needed it. West Germany's got other shit on it's plate, like the Soviets on it's border. The Netherlands have Parachute units that could deploy within a week (I think) depending on whether or not the British and French have the planes.
 

Cook

Banned
Australia: It depends on the years, like Canada. There were times that I believe Australia had no parachute/light infantry capability, which is the kind of troops that could get there in one week.

Riain would know better but I don’t think there would be a time when Australia didn’t have such forces.

The problem would be what other commitments we were involved in and wether it would be considered wise to deploy light infantry on a largely mechanised battlefield or if we’d prefer to commit just air forces and navy elements.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Riain would know better but I don’t think there would be a time when Australia didn’t have such forces.

The problem would be what other commitments we were involved in and wether it would be considered wise to deploy light infantry on a largely mechanised battlefield or if we’d prefer to commit just air forces and navy elements.

Well, I'm working on this thing in "1 Week," then "1 Month" and "2 Months."

So all I was looking for was the existence of forces able to be deployed in that span of time.

As for light infantry fighting in that sort of battlefield, one could say that the Canadian experience with dropping the Airborne Regiment into Cyprus in '74 and engaging in ground combat against both the Turkish invaders and Greek Cypriots would make a fairly persuasive argument in favour of the fact that they can do it, provided the circumstances are right and they're not thrown away in some piecemeal action.
 
Australia: It depends on the years, like Canada. There were times that I believe Australia had no parachute/light infantry capability, which is the kind of troops that could get there in one week.

Japan: That's a can of worms that could kill us or save us. :rolleyes:

other NATO members: Italy doesn't have an expeditionary capacity, because it honestly never needed it. West Germany's got other shit on it's plate, like the Soviets on it's border. The Netherlands have Parachute units that could deploy within a week (I think) depending on whether or not the British and French have the planes.

Well, Italy did/does have the San Marco Marine Battalion and the Folgore Airborne Brigade. And I think most of the Australian Army are consisted of light infantry during the Cold War years...Don't forget the Aussie SAS too.

Japan also has a para regiment now and then, but the JGSDF were mostly geared towards a slugging match against the Red Army, so the rest of the JGSDF were Inf Divs with 1 Armor Div up North.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Well, Italy did/does have the San Marco Marine Battalion and the Folgore Airborne Brigade. And I think most of the Australian Army are consisted of light infantry during the Cold War years...Don't forget the Aussie SAS too.

I had the San Marco in my head when I typed it: you've got to admit that it's very unlikely they'd throw what's essentially their entire Marine force at a trouble spot that's completely on the other side of the world, you know?

I did think about the RAR's light infantry force, but I don't think any of the units were deployable within a week. I'm going to do another one here in about 10-20 minutes that's forces I think could be deployed in 1 Month, and the amount is significantly higher due to logistics and readiness.
 
The Italian Army RDF is actually a decent sized formation of 1 Mech Brigade (Friulli), an Alpini Brigade, the Folgore Para Brigade (and an SF unit), a helicopter unit plus the San Marco Regiment from the Navy (a battalion plus logistics and so on). For mobility they have 20 odd Herks plus some C27s (the older version the G222). Italians have 4 San Giorgio type LPD's (small ships though)

Spanish RDF has an airportable brigade, parachute brigade, marines brigade and the Foreign Legion (who incidentally are all now Spanish). Spanish have a light carrier and a couple LSD's and are engaged in building an LHD.

Dutch RDF stylie forces are the 11 Airmobile Brigade with 3 semi para trained battalions, mortar battery and others plus GOEM (Dutch Marines). SF includes the Commando Corps (Army) with 4 companies similiar in size and scope to an SAS Squadron. The Dutch are rated very highly -if fairly few in number. They work very well with UK and Canadian forces.

UK RDF. This has changed A LOT. There is now an extra deployable Div HQ although this could go (6th Div). It doesn't have any units as such. Main RDF is 5th Airmobile with 2 para trained battalions and 2 airportable bns, plus most of the Army Air Corps, an RHA Para regt and support (I guess its really a very small division in size and scope). There's also 3 Commando Brigade with 3 RM Commandos and a battalion of The Rifles. They also have engineer, artillery, brigade HQ and logistics units plus amphibious assault and so on. Back in the 1960s and up to 1978 things were very different. Then we had 16th Para Brigade and JATFOR complete with 10 Belfast transports, 14 VC10s, 9 Comets, 10 or so Brittanias, 30 plus Andovers, 66 Herks, 30 plus Argosies (and helicopers plus 4 squadrons of Wessex from the RN). RM had 3 Commando Brigade (left Singapore in 1970) and there were at one point 5 commandos in existence (the 4th one went in 1981), there was a proposal to establish 3 Cdo Brigade in Far East and 4 Commando Brigade at home at one point. Projection capability at its zenith was 2 commando carriers and 2 commando assault ships (plus a good near dozen LST's and LSL's). Now...well.

Canadians -well they had CAR which kept changing its range of capabilities. I think its form in 1969 was probably the best with 2 commandos each with 278 men, plus artillery, engineer, logistics and signals companies each with 80 men. (I have wondered where the extra 370 men would go that were originally envisaged for the unit-perhaps a 3rd commando?)

Luxembourg-don't laugh-they sent a platoon back in the Korean War that formed up in the Belgian Battalion. Today their army is just a few platoons strong plus training and logistics (and some who go flying in NATO AWACS or are a bit sporty). Their zenith was late 1950s when they had around 9000 men in their army.
 
Chile may offer troops in '85, '97, '03, and 2010, and perhaps in '91, but not in '73. In a week - maybe the Special Operations Brigade Lautaro, composed of a parachute battalion, logistics troops, and mountain troops. In 1-2 months - maybe one or two divisions?

Argentina will definitely offer troops in '97, during the peak of US-Argentine relations. In one week - the Fuerza de Despliegue Rápido (Rapid Deployment Force), centered around a parachute brigade. In 1-2 months - maybe III Army Corps, a division-sized mountain infantry formation?

Ethiopia committed a 1,200-man force in the first Korean War... but wouldn't this time around - in '73, Haile Selassie is busy fighting a civil war, and after that the Communists took over and Ethiopia began facing lots of other problems.

Turkey (deploying in '91, '97, '03, '10) can't commit much - most likely troops from III Corps of First Army (the Turkish component of NATO's Rapid Deployment Corps). Not sure what would arrive in a month.

Colombia committed a single 1000-man battalion in the first Korean War, and might be able to commit troops in '73 - probably a force of similar size, deployed in a month.

Thailand committed a 2100-man regiment in the first Korean War, and a similarly-sized force should be deployable in a month in '85, '91, '97, and maybe 2003; 2010 seems out on account of the domestic violence in Thailand.

Singapore could commit the 21st Division, its rapid-deployment force, likely lead elements within a week and certainly within a month.

In 2010, Indonesia probably would deploy 1st Infantry Division from its strategic reserve corps, with the 17th Airborne Infantry Brigade arriving in a week or two and the rest arriving within a two-month timespan.

Ukraine, if it commits troops in 2010, likely commits elements of its airmobile forces.

South Africa committed a squadron of fighters in the first Korean War; might a similar commitment be made in '97, '03 or 2010?

Poland, likely committing troops in '91, '97, and maybe 2010 (2003 seems out, on account of Polish troops already being committed to the Iraq War), probably centers its deployment around the 6th Air Assault and 25th Air Cavalry brigades.
 
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abc123

Banned
Yes, many countries could deploy some forces, but after 1991. nobody cares any more about Korea, except USA- ofc. So nobody won't do anything, not even the Britain. Only USA.
And, after all, ROKAF doesn't need any help.
;)
 
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