Alliance/Union between Italian Maritime Republics?

The Maritime Republics in Italy have always fascinated me. (for those of you who don't know, this refers to the Italian citystates of Amalfi, Gaeta, Ancona, Ragusa, Pisa Genoa and Venice)
These states compete with each other, and form a shifting web of alliances and warfare. It is remarkable how through commercial power single cities were able to build armies which toppled Empires and could fight off mainland European kingdoms.
As these states often were in alliance with eachother, I was thinking that perhaps a permanent alliance or even a union between these cities could come about. Since their competition was based on protecting their monopolies. perhaps foreign threats which cause then to band together temporarily OTL may result in agreements which prevent the need for further competition. This may cause a permanent military alliance, some sort of commercial regulatory body between states, and possibly even a league featuring effectively non-dynastic (though still autocratic) leadership.
Does anyone forsee a way this might come about?
 

Esopo

Banned
The Maritime Republics in Italy have always fascinated me. (for those of you who don't know, this refers to the Italian citystates of Amalfi, Gaeta, Ancona, Ragusa, Pisa Genoa and Venice)
These states compete with each other, and form a shifting web of alliances and warfare. It is remarkable how through commercial power single cities were able to build armies which toppled Empires and could fight off mainland European kingdoms.
As these states often were in alliance with eachother, I was thinking that perhaps a permanent alliance or even a union between these cities could come about. Since their competition was based on protecting their monopolies. perhaps foreign threats which cause then to band together temporarily OTL may result in agreements which prevent the need for further competition. This may cause a permanent military alliance, some sort of commercial regulatory body between states, and possibly even a league featuring effectively non-dynastic (though still autocratic) leadership.
Does anyone forsee a way this might come about?

Italians usually kept fighting each others even when confronted by foreign powers. Just look at venice with the turks.
 
Thinking more about this, I've developed several points which may impact the development of some sort of League between the city-states.

-1016, Pisa and Genoa are allied against the Saracens and see dramatic success. 200 years later though rivalries escalate and Genoa effectively causes the decline of Pisa as a maritime power.

-Pisa and Venice, although competitive, create alliances in which they identify specific zones of influence for their mutual benefit. Venice actually intervenes militarily to try and prevent the conquest of Pisa by the Florentines.

-in 1218 Venice and Genoa agree to protect eachothers independence and end privateering against eachother. Most of the competition between Venice and Genoa is due to the Byzantines barring the Venetians from the black sea in favour of the Genoans.

-1039, Amalfi is conquered by the Normans in Salerno. It revolts a few times, but never manages to recover its independence. Eventually a sack by the Pisans helps cause its rapid decline. After this it's role as chief commercial city in Campania is usurped by Naples.

-Ancona and Ragusa, two relatively minor maritime republics, are nominally allied with eachother, and become rich through trade with Hungary and the Byzantines (later the Ottomans). Venice is their chief commercial rival, the maccinations of both Venice and the Papacy eventually lead to the decline of these two powers.

So, based on this, a timeline with a League would feature;
-A large part of the Alliance's purpose would be to reduce papal/HRE leverage over the maritime republics.
-A more solidified alliance between Pisa and Genoa, similar to the Pisan-Venetian agreements.
-Possibly the inclusion of Amalfi in this alliance. If so, some sort of war against the Principality of Salerno would have to be launched. The Papacy is allied with the Pisans-Genoans at the time due to their war against the Saracens. However, 1 year after the conquest of Amalfi, the Holy Roman Emperor grants Salerno military authority over Amalfi. A decisive war might prevent this, however.
-Conrad II could fail to protect the rights of the Bughars in Milan. This would possibly galzanize the maritime republics into supporting each other, as the church conspired to reduce the rights of the Bughars in Milan and the Bughars as a huge part of the maritime republic's societies.
-The alliance between Pisa and Venice is stronger, and Venice becomes a partner in the previously 2/3 member alliance
-Ragusa remains under Venetian control instead of becoming independant. This is a point that will subtly inspire further integration; formerly seperate commercial zones become open to multiple members of the alliance, the alliance starts trying to integrate conquered territories more, etc.
-Ancona may join the alliance.
-The Latin Empire still comes into existance, as Byzantium still becomes hostile to the "latins" and still provokes Venetian (probably at this point altered to the whole alliance) to help collapse Byzantine rule. However, it's probably bigger and more prosperous, due to the participation of multiple alliance members.
-The Alliance will eventually enter a rivalry with Aragon (Papal supported) over controll of the Mediterranean.
After that, who knows? If the Alliance survives to the end of the renaissance, perhaps it becomes the first liberal European nation. Perhaps the Alliance becomes a major colonial power.

I think I'll start writing a timeline on this.
 
Italians usually kept fighting each others even when confronted by foreign powers. Just look at venice with the turks.
Sorry for not responding, I was occupied writing a massive wall of text.
What factors do you think influence this, and what do you think could alter them?
 
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Esopo

Banned
Sorry for not responding, I was occupied writing a massive wall of text.
What factors do you think influence this, and what do you think could alter them?

Heh, our national caracther is i think the main factor here. Unlike persian wars greece, there was never an "italian" feeling of unity against a foreign invader.
All what mattered was business, and until the rise of the ottoman empire there wasnt really any power which could seriously compete with the strenght of italian powers in the mediterranean sea about the control of the trades.
When the ottomans began to rise, they were underrated again and again, and venice was too much short-sighted to understand that to secure their trades today with an agreement with the turks meant to lose them tomorrow.
Maybe what you need to have an italian alliance in the golden age of maritime republics is a real non-christian menace in italy. An arabic invasion which, occupied rome in the 1200's, would menace to submit northern italy would be enough, i think, to obtain what the french invasion of italy didnt obtain.
 

Esopo

Banned
Do you mean Ragusa/Dubrovnik(Adriatic) or Ragusa(Sicily). I guess you mean the first since the later was not at the seaside.

Calling Ragusa italian is quite dubious. Calling it dalmatian or latin/romej would be much closer to truth.

Thats true, but it was surely culturally more italian than anything else, even more than byzantine.
 
Thats true, but it was surely culturally more italian than anything else, even more than byzantine.

At that time I am not sure I would call the culture italian. What evidence we have there was a general Adriatic coine and there wasn't much difference between a mostly slavic Šibenik/Sebenico, mixed Dubrovnik/Ragusa or Zadar/Zara and mostly romance Venezia.
 
At that time I am not sure I would call the culture italian. What evidence we have there was a general Adriatic coine and there wasn't much difference between a mostly slavic Šibenik/Sebenico, mixed Dubrovnik/Ragusa or Zadar/Zara and mostly romance Venezia.
Yeah, calling it Italian isn't accurate in terms of culture. Also, from a political viewpoint, it fluctuates between Hungarian and Italian control. (as does the rest of Dalmatia) There isn't really an Italian national identity at this point; there is a Latin identity though, which can be used.
 
I really doubt you could pull this off. They were competing against each other. To get people to band together, you usually need an outside threat. So.... the byzantines surviving and becoming a major maritime power? That might get the italians to band together. Of course, its more likely that e.g. venice becomes an effective part of the Empire....
 
I really doubt you could pull this off. They were competing against each other. To get people to band together, you usually need an outside threat. So.... the byzantines surviving and becoming a major maritime power? That might get the italians to band together. Of course, its more likely that e.g. venice becomes an effective part of the Empire....

Venice under the Byzantine thumb? One thinks a lot of people would object to a Byzantine foothold in northern Italy...

Bruce
 
I'm exploring a kind of similar idea in my TL, though I'm a bit wary of giving out spoilers, and it includes most of Italy rather than jut maritime states, allthough Venice is arguably the most important and powerful member state.
 
I really doubt you could pull this off. They were competing against each other. To get people to band together, you usually need an outside threat. So.... the byzantines surviving and becoming a major maritime power? That might get the italians to band together. Of course, its more likely that e.g. venice becomes an effective part of the Empire....

Byzantine influence is a possibility. The only way I can see Byzantine influence continuing in Italy though is crushing defeats of the Lombards, in which case the maritime cities never gain their independence in the first place.
There are other good external threats though. For example, we could have a Holy Roman Empire attempting to reassert its authority over Italy. We could also have a full Saracen invasion of Italy (rather then stopping at Sicily, and losing their near-monopoly on mediterranean trade to Amalfi, perhaps they invade southern Italy).
I was thinking perhaps a combination of both could suffice. A weakened Norman presence in Southern Italy could lead to Arab invasion. The Papal States could be under threat, in which case they'd need the protection of the Holy Roman Empire. The HRE then attempts to force maritime republics to alternately give up their sovereignity or to support them in wars, varying emperor to emperor. If Conrad II fails to protect the rights of the bughars in Milan, there is great incentive to remain independent. Hrm...
 
Wouldn't a union of the maritime republics on the basis of defense against invasion/domination by the HRE and the Arabs serve as an early foundation for the unity of Italy?

The Republics would have the money, and states like Milan and Florence would be under as much threat as the others ITTL. If they manage to expel both the Germans and the Saracens, perhaps they could take the Kingdom of Italy, and turn it into an elective monarchy, dominated by Italian commercial interests in a Senate or parliament.
 
I have also been thinking about this recently, but one question I have is do you think this maritime union could survive the Napoleonic Wars in tact without the Austrians taking it over? maybe if they had been unified for long enough they could be seen as a nation not as little bits to be gobbled up
 
I think the most successful way to do thiw would be between three of them, Venice, Genoa and Amalfi or some small state in Southern Italy, that way you could get them to work together but also agree on their monopolies in their respective areas.
 
More than just having them ally, you have to have them stay together in the alliance for a pretty long period of time before you'll see a union pre-nationalism.

Lets assume the Arabs get into Italy because of weakened Normans there and threaten Rome. The alliance might collapse as soon as they are a less pressing threat and Rome is safe.

To have the mercheant republics stay allied for a long period of time, the threat has to exist there for a long period of time. Perhaps a successful and prosperous Islamic emirate of Naples or something. That would be a constant and pressing threat to Rome and to Italy as a whole, and some kind of coalition between Italian mercheant republics would survive as long as the emirate did, at least until they unite.

Remember, national unions were basically unheard of before nationalism started rearing its head.
 
I really doubt you could pull this off. They were competing against each other. To get people to band together, you usually need an outside threat. So.... the byzantines surviving and becoming a major maritime power? That might get the italians to band together. Of course, its more likely that e.g. venice becomes an effective part of the Empire....

And the thing is with these maritime republics, is they are only as powerful as their fleet is able to maintain supremacy and project power. That's why there has been Amalfi, Pisa, Genoa, Ragusa, and Venice as separate powers is because once their fleet was beaten decidedly they did not recover (as geopolitical powers).

For them to be collectively theatened there has to be credible threat to their fleets. If the Italian city states can unite so can the Muslim powers, which could turn very nasty for the Italian powers.
 
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