Alliance of Civilizations

Spanish PM proposed a few weeks ago an alliance of Civilizations between Islam and Western Democracies, at the moment only Mongolia has given an answer...

WI North Korea, Iran, Siria, Yemen and Sudan accepted the offer?
 
Nothing whatsoever.

Members of Parliament occasionally feel the need to make grand, empty gestures. This one is aimed squarely at the electorate.

Now, if such a thing were genuinely planned, I think Sudan, Iran and Syria would stand a chance of getting in. Somehow I can't see Kim Jong Il convincing anyone of his Muslim credentials...
 
I take it you are talking about Huntingtonian civilisations?

You have closer ties between China (sino/Confucian) and Islam, specially Iran. Securing oil and less-than-1000%-friendly-with-US.
 
team america

carlton_bach said:
Nothing whatsoever.

Members of Parliament occasionally feel the need to make grand, empty gestures. This one is aimed squarely at the electorate.

Now, if such a thing were genuinely planned, I think Sudan, Iran and Syria would stand a chance of getting in. Somehow I can't see Kim Jong Il convincing anyone of his Muslim credentials...


oh come on! haven't you seen Team America!?!?!
 

Hendryk

Banned
aktarian said:
I take it you are talking about Huntingtonian civilisations?

You have closer ties between China (sino/Confucian) and Islam, specially Iran. Securing oil and less-than-1000%-friendly-with-US.
That's one of the many problems with Huntington's thesis, he arbitrarily assigns alliances between his (equally arbitrary) civilizational blocs. I personally fail to see close ties between China and Islam, except insofar as the majority population in Xinjiang province is made of Muslim Uighurs and other Turkic peoples (Huntington's nicely-delineated civilizational borders don't hold up to serious analysis). Yes, so China wants a secure oil supply, which country doesn't? By that standard you may say that the US also has close ties with Islam; isn't there a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, not to mention Egypt, Pakistan and other Muslim countries?
 
Hendryk said:
That's one of the many problems with Huntington's thesis, he arbitrarily assigns alliances between his (equally arbitrary) civilizational blocs. I personally fail to see close ties between China and Islam, except insofar as the majority population in Xinjiang province is made of Muslim Uighurs and other Turkic peoples (Huntington's nicely-delineated civilizational borders don't hold up to serious analysis). Yes, so China wants a secure oil supply, which country doesn't? By that standard you may say that the US also has close ties with Islam; isn't there a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, not to mention Egypt, Pakistan and other Muslim countries?
Hendryk, it is quite refreshing (and reassuring too!) to find someone with clear ideas, and the capacity of putting them in written form :D
I am in total agreement with you: I would add that Chinese way of thinking (as formed by their civilization, starting even before than Confucius) cannot be aligned to a fundamentalist Islam (nor to a fundamentalist Xtianity, btw: we are much closer to Islam - even if somehow have progressed a bit beyond the religion wars and witch hunting).
Obviously China may well see a benefit in a tactical alliance with Iran; by the same token they are substantially interested in securing cheap and reliable oil supplies. What has this to do with a civilization clash? Or with a civilizations line-up?
 
Question.

In reality (as opposed to in thoretical constructs) alliances are defined less by what the allies share culturally, economically, and politically, than by who they are directed against. The classic example being the Allied alliance in WW2 combining christian/secular democracies lke the USA and UK, secularCommunist dictatorships like the USSR, and confucian near-fascist dictatorships like China. This alliance would never have existed but for the perceived common threat posed by expansionistic Germany and Japan.

What on earth would be the reason for an alliance between "Islam" and "western civilization?" Who, or what,would it be directed against? If the west were more explicitly religious I could perhaps see an affiliation between the Christian west and Islamic world as an alliance of evangelistic Abrahamic believers against secular ideologies such as communism, secular humanism, and non-Abrahamic faith traditions. Several years ago, I saw what seemend to be a call for such an alliance by Pope John Paul II in his outreach to the Islamic World in the convergence of interest the Papacy and the conservative Third World had on issues regarding sexual and reproductive rights issues. If it weren't for the current conflict between radical islamic movements and GW's USA, as well as the close ties between the USA and Israel, an alliance between the increasingly conservative USA and Islam against the secular world perhaps be possible. But I doubt that is what the Spanish PM is talking about. Plus, given the basic nature of the USA, it is unlikely the USA government would ever become so explicitly conservative christian on a permanant basis make that possible, at least on a formal state to state basis
 
zoomar said:
Question.

In reality (as opposed to in thoretical constructs) alliances are defined less by what the allies share culturally, economically, and politically, than by who they are directed against. The classic example being the Allied alliance in WW2 combining christian/secular democracies lke the USA and UK, secularCommunist dictatorships like the USSR, and confucian near-fascist dictatorships like China. This alliance would never have existed but for the perceived common threat posed by expansionistic Germany and Japan.

What on earth would be the reason for an alliance between "Islam" and "western civilization?" Who, or what,would it be directed against? If the west were more explicitly religious I could perhaps see an affiliation between the Christian west and Islamic world as an alliance of evangelistic Abrahamic believers against secular ideologies such as communism, secular humanism, and non-Abrahamic faith traditions. Several years ago, I saw what seemend to be a call for such an alliance by Pope John Paul II in his outreach to the Islamic World in the convergence of interest the Papacy and the conservative Third World had on issues regarding sexual and reproductive rights issues. If it weren't for the current conflict between radical islamic movements and GW's USA, as well as the close ties between the USA and Israel, an alliance between the increasingly conservative USA and Islam against the secular world perhaps be possible. But I doubt that is what the Spanish PM is talking about. Plus, given the basic nature of the USA, it is unlikely the USA government would ever become so explicitly conservative christian on a permanant basis make that possible, at least on a formal state to state basis
The common roots to an "Abrahamic origin" would be enough to postulate a Xtian/Islamic alliance. Add to this the common hate for modernism, the common fight against abortion (pro-life ideals), and against birth control methods. Add the common feeling that the women are not exactly the same as men, and must be "protected". Are you surprised to find that Catholics and Islamics vote so often in the same way on "social issues"? Going back to America, after the issues of the last elections (which in any case were just confirmations of a deep trend) I am not betting on anything. Except this, I mean: the American Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves like mad.
Good old Robert Heinlein knew very well his American neighbours :(
 

Hendryk

Banned
LordKalvan said:
The common roots to an "Abrahamic origin" would be enough to postulate a Xtian/Islamic alliance. Add to this the common hate for modernism, the common fight against abortion (pro-life ideals), and against birth control methods. Add the common feeling that the women are not exactly the same as men, and must be "protected". Are you surprised to find that Catholics and Islamics vote so often in the same way on "social issues"? Going back to America, after the issues of the last elections (which in any case were just confirmations of a deep trend) I am not betting on anything. Except this, I mean: the American Founding Fathers are spinning in their graves like mad.
Good old Robert Heinlein knew very well his American neighbours :(
Ian had found a great article on this topic, in which a member of Heritage USA (or some other conservative lobby, my memory's fuzzy) candidly explained that, at the UN level, supporters of the Christian Right's agenda more often find common ground with countries like Iran, Sudan and other theocratic dictatorships in the Muslim world, than with Western democracies. It was refreshingly frank, and made for great reading. You should ask him for it, I wasn't able to find it.
 
Hendryk said:
That's one of the many problems with Huntington's thesis, he arbitrarily assigns alliances between his (equally arbitrary) civilizational blocs. I personally fail to see close ties between China and Islam, except insofar as the majority population in Xinjiang province is made of Muslim Uighurs and other Turkic peoples (Huntington's nicely-delineated civilizational borders don't hold up to serious analysis). Yes, so China wants a secure oil supply, which country doesn't? By that standard you may say that the US also has close ties with Islam; isn't there a strategic alliance with Saudi Arabia, not to mention Egypt, Pakistan and other Muslim countries?

As others said China and Iran could ally themselves to counter US/West. Democratic US allied themselves with various dictatorships during Cold War to counter common enemy, Soviet Union.

If China wants oil supply from MidEast it makes more sense to ally with potential US adversary, as they are potential US adversay as well. If they would ally with say, Saudi Arabia, in potential conflict US ally SA will more likelly cut of suplies than US adversary Iran.

And there are more reasons to ally with Iran instead of Saudia. While both countries are exporters of Islamic fundamentalism Ianain exports have decline and were aimed & sucesfull among shi'ias while Saudi is sunnia nd can thus find support in more countries. While I can't fathom Iranian support for islamic groupsin china I can easy fathom Saudi support for them.
 
aktarian said:
As others said China and Iran could ally themselves to counter US/West. Democratic US allied themselves with various dictatorships during Cold War to counter common enemy, Soviet Union.

If China wants oil supply from MidEast it makes more sense to ally with potential US adversary, as they are potential US adversay as well. If they would ally with say, Saudi Arabia, in potential conflict US ally SA will more likelly cut of suplies than US adversary Iran.

And there are more reasons to ally with Iran instead of Saudia. While both countries are exporters of Islamic fundamentalism Ianain exports have decline and were aimed & sucesfull among shi'ias while Saudi is sunnia nd can thus find support in more countries. While I can't fathom Iranian support for islamic groupsin china I can easy fathom Saudi support for them.
I would have exactly the opposite view of lont-term alliances in ME: eveything considered, Iran was always closer (in practical actions) to US than Saudi
 
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