ALL PRE-COLOMBIAN THEORIES ARE REAL
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
Dude, what about the Welsh in North Dakota- with the Mandan Indians supposedly speaking a language remarkably similar to Welsh- and the Knights Templar, such as John Sinclair, arriving in America in 1398 and designing the fiendishly ingenious Oak Island Money Pit off Nova Scotia ?
The one no one has mentioned is the idea of Vikings in Paraguay! For a while at least it was taught as 'official' history in schools there (might still be for all I know!). Basically a slightly mad, anti-native Indian Porfessor decided that there was no way the local native Indians could have built the ancient ruins so he decided to 'prove' it was the Vikings, who clearly got very lost one day. Normally this would have just been filed under 'another nutter' but the then Minister of Defence heard about it, liked it and endorsed the book, even writing the forward. Then it ended up being taught as accepted theory.
I suppose it comes down to what we mean by discovered-if you want to say that all these cultures, etc had occasional ships that got across the oceans and found the Americas and in some cases got back then I have no problems with that. It's even possible that some might have made regular trips but I think I have to say I do not agree with any of them establishing lasting colonies. Maybe a few short term ones did get established but died out for various reasons.
Part of the problem is that a lot of the 'finds' proving the Romans etc discovered America appear to actually be from the collections of earlier Antiquarians who either lost bits, had their collections binned when they died or deliberately faked the evidence.
Oh, someone mentioned Mystery Hill-I thought that this had been 'proved' to be a fairly modern piece of work, undertaken by a local man who had had a mental breakdown and done the signs etc as therpay?
I suppose it comes down to what we mean by discovered-if you want to say that all these cultures, etc had occasional ships that got across the oceans and found the Americas and in some cases got back then I have no problems with that. It's even possible that some might have made regular trips but I think I have to say I do not agree with any of them establishing lasting colonies. Maybe a few short term ones did get established but died out for various reasons.
Part of the problem is that a lot of the 'finds' proving the Romans etc discovered America appear to actually be from the collections of earlier Antiquarians who either lost bits, had their collections binned when they died or deliberately faked the evidence.
Oh, someone mentioned Mystery Hill-I thought that this had been 'proved' to be a fairly modern piece of work, undertaken by a local man who had had a mental breakdown and done the signs etc as therpay?
Myceneans : Region: Laestrygonia & The Aeolian Isles(OTL Cuba, and the Lesser Antilles), Capital: Lamus Telepylus(OTL Havanah). Perhaps The Oldest Precolumbian Culture is that of the Laestryonia & and it's tributary states the Aeolian Islands. Between 1200-1170 BCE, Myceneans merchants sailed from Cornwall, Britain through the Atlantic. Odysseus an Powerful Merchant from Ithica an Myceanean Outpost on Britain discovers the Islands and names them, he teaches the Cannibal Carib Indians, the Linear B Script, The Mycenean Panthenon, and archeticture. The Capital city of Lamus Telephylus, Is an heavilly fortified city, Sorrunded by heavy Cyclopean fortififications. Lion Gates placed all over the city, for the seemingly native Inhabitants, Who speak and live much like the ancient Myceaneans. Also in Laestrygonia, The Large Arab class is steadill growing power in the Ancient Island, and is becoming more and more infulential everyday.
Vikings are definatly real.
The Welsh one has a lot of evidence too (a tribe of natives speaking pidgin Welsh with white features)
There is no reason the saint could not have managed it, since it was just him and a few other monks they wouldn't leave much of a lasting legacy, the tribe they converted could have been wiped out, or not converted in the first place.
The Welsh one has a lot of evidence too (a tribe of natives speaking pidgin Welsh with white features)
There is no reason the saint could not have managed it, since it was just him and a few other monks they wouldn't leave much of a lasting legacy, the tribe they converted could have been wiped out, or not converted in the first place.
nope. It's been proven to be of colonial origin. What no one has ever explained is just why they built such a weird collection of stone huts... possibly for root cellars...Jason said:
Thande
Donor
A surreal image just came to me...
A version of the Monty Python sketch in which the seductive woman ushers the young nervous postman into her bedroom only for him to discover he's been locked in there with a variety of other postman, some of which are incredibly old or even skeletons dressed in postal uniforms -
That, only with Columbus being ushered into a room labelled 'AMERICA' only to find it filled with ancient, mournful looking Welsh, Irish, Basques, Carthaginians, etc. etc.
A version of the Monty Python sketch in which the seductive woman ushers the young nervous postman into her bedroom only for him to discover he's been locked in there with a variety of other postman, some of which are incredibly old or even skeletons dressed in postal uniforms -
That, only with Columbus being ushered into a room labelled 'AMERICA' only to find it filled with ancient, mournful looking Welsh, Irish, Basques, Carthaginians, etc. etc.
Leo Caesius
Banned
You're speaking of the Mandan, who live today in the Great Plains area but are alleged to have originated in the American southeast (and from a grapevine, but let's not get ahead of ourselves). They speak a language which is clearly a member of the greater Siouan (Lakota/Dakota) family. A number of vocabulary items have been alleged to show evidence of a Welsh connection, but in actual fact, chance similarities between the languages of the world are extremely common. The most famous examples include Persian bad, which means "bad," and Mbabaram dog, which means "dog" (Mbabaram is a language of the Australian aboriginals). Neither of these are loanwords from English; they are both banner examples of what we call "false cognates."Leej said:
Here's a good website that debunks the pseudolinguistics behind the alleged Welsh-Mandan connection.
Leo Caesius said:
So what your saying that Merikh is the capital city of the Mississippi River Delta, and that the Greeks, Romans and Punics coexist with them in the city? And Which Precolumbian Theory are you using for the Greeks(Thule is no where close to the Missisppi) And how have the Mandeans treated the Mississippian native?
Leo Caesius
Banned
The Greeks are there for the same reason that the Phoenicians and Arabs are there - it's a big city, and the Greek merchants wouldn't miss the opportunity to set up shop in a large city. Remember, if these cultures were to find themselves in the New World, they'd almost certainly be interacting.Historico said:
As regards the aboriginals - Chitimachas? - when the French settled the Isle d'Orleans in the 17th century, it was uninhabited (and for good reason - too swampy). In fact, all of Louisiana was fairly sparsely populated. The Mandaeans' native habitat is the swamps of southern Iraq, so I don't imagine that the region would pose much of a challenge to them. They would not arrive in significant numbers to dislodge the locals, nor would they care to do so, so I'd imagine that they'd have fairly good relations with the aboriginals.
Would the Norse, Arab Muslims, Romans and Nubians be more Imperlistic than the other cultures and look forward to expansion and the gaining of more territory? And I was talking about Amerindians in General...Would they be repressed and relocated like we did in OTL? Or would the Aztecs, Maya, and the Mississippians still rise like they did in OTL?
Leo Caesius
Banned
If you mean expansion as in OTL colonial powers, I doubt it. The cultures we're dealing with here have neither the motivation nor the wherewithal to embark upon a colonial venture. The first few generations are likely to be characterized by small-size settlements, trading with the locals, and lots of interbreeding. If anything, the only conquests that occur in this timeline are likely to come from the locals, who will pick up a few tricks from the new colonists and start settling old scores or creating a little lebensraum for themselves, as the city folk stand by the sidelines.Historico said:
Of course, some of the islands and the less densely populated areas might not be assimilated. In the far north and the far south, as well as the Carribean, you might see colonial ventures approaching something like OTL - with transplanted cultures and fairly homogenous populations. But that is very unlikely in any area with a substrate population, particularly with the levels of technology and communication that we're dealing with here. The only group likely to have any degree of direction and coordination with "back home" are the Arabs, and there you're likely to see a scenario similar to subsaharan Africa - urban settlements, slave trade, lots of trade on the coasts, but no "Arab American Empire". There will also be a great degree of evangelical zeal, so we could potentially see the rise of an Aztec Caliphate. The old sacrificial rituals would become reinterpreted along the lines of the story of Ismail.
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I am borrowing Doug Hoff's Annyfn and Vinland for the Timeline
The Welsh: Republic of Annwyfn [approximately OTL's Alabama and Mississippi], capital Tremadoc
To call Annwyfn a 'republic' is to lay quite a bit of gilt on the lily. It is a republic in the sense that it has no monarch. Or any government at all, for that matter. Shortly after the arrival of the last flotilla from Gwynedd in 1175, Madoc had one of his trademark mood swings, triggered by some persistent squabbling among the leading families. And, abandoning his charges, off he went, deep into the wilderness, eventually settling high in the mountains at Dywydd Briga ["Weather Top" OTL's Lookout Mountain] with about a dozen or so dedicated followers. Among those he left behind, disorder ensues, as does a series of [in]felicitous accidents, homicides and what-not, the Welsh settlers find themselves almost entirely without a noble class. The peasantry, by now quite discontent and disillusioned with the people who led them across the Mor Werydh ["western seas"] only to desert them, turn on the few surviving nobles. When all is said and done, they are left on their own to clear the land and make a life for themselves. As Brihtwine puts it, "the Welsh of Annwyfn will suffer no governance and do not hesitate to raise their hands against any man who attempts to issue commands or take on lordly airs." In other words, they have a state with no government above the village level - There is law. Judges, juries are and sheriffs chosen on an as-needed basis and the few literate men, the vast majority of whom are priests, are charged with recording the Common Law of Annwyfn. And speaking of the Church, the Popes do not forget about the Christians who have departed for the end of the world. The Church appoints Bishops for Annwyfn, although its exact location is not exactly well-known, even in Wales. This is a ready-made situation for absentee Bishops well until the early thirteenth century. And so Christianity suffers among the Welsh of Annwyfn. Their priests are decidedly uncelibate and the priesthood becomes predominantly, but not exclusively, hereditary. The liturgy is rather peculiar by European standards. Latin has largely vanished and Mass is conducted in the vernacular, with the entire congregation receiving communion in both types. Once more sustained contact with Europe is established after da Conti's expedition, Rome dispatches a resident bishop and priests in an attempt to get the Annwyfnians back on the doctrinal reservation. Annwyfn, like the other European settlements, starts with subsistence agriculture, with land-use - villages surrounded by fields that are plowed in furlongs, with each household owning strips. The Annwyfnians also trade with their neighbors and buy salt, torsk [salted fish], wadmal [cloth], raw iron and other goods that make their way down the Yardina [Mississippi] River.
The Romans: Nova Roma {Approxamiatley East Texas...and border from OTL Fort Worth down to Laredo} Capital..Nova Palatina(OTL Houston)
Nova Roma, after several accidental shipwrecks and atlantic crossings have landed the Shipwrecked sailors and Merchants in Texans. The Romans have followed something liike the model used by the Spanish in their colonies. They have established themselves as the ruling class in what are, primarily, native societies, and forcibly imposed a veneer of Roman culture over the old native civilizations. Latin is in the process of replacing the various native tongues, much as Spanish did in the OTL. However, unlike the Spanish, they are interested in more than just looting the new lands of their mineral wealth, which has two effects on their colonization...they don’t expand as rapidly as the Spanish did (they don’t have reebooting expeditions going off into unexplored areas seeking "Lost Cities of Gold," for example), and the areas they do occupy are more heavily settled by Roman colonies. That and the sheer size and power of the Muslim Controlled Aztec Empire, forces the Romans to abandon their Imperlistic Polcies and profit from the Valuable Lumber trade with the Aztecs.
The Welsh: Republic of Annwyfn [approximately OTL's Alabama and Mississippi], capital Tremadoc
To call Annwyfn a 'republic' is to lay quite a bit of gilt on the lily. It is a republic in the sense that it has no monarch. Or any government at all, for that matter. Shortly after the arrival of the last flotilla from Gwynedd in 1175, Madoc had one of his trademark mood swings, triggered by some persistent squabbling among the leading families. And, abandoning his charges, off he went, deep into the wilderness, eventually settling high in the mountains at Dywydd Briga ["Weather Top" OTL's Lookout Mountain] with about a dozen or so dedicated followers. Among those he left behind, disorder ensues, as does a series of [in]felicitous accidents, homicides and what-not, the Welsh settlers find themselves almost entirely without a noble class. The peasantry, by now quite discontent and disillusioned with the people who led them across the Mor Werydh ["western seas"] only to desert them, turn on the few surviving nobles. When all is said and done, they are left on their own to clear the land and make a life for themselves. As Brihtwine puts it, "the Welsh of Annwyfn will suffer no governance and do not hesitate to raise their hands against any man who attempts to issue commands or take on lordly airs." In other words, they have a state with no government above the village level - There is law. Judges, juries are and sheriffs chosen on an as-needed basis and the few literate men, the vast majority of whom are priests, are charged with recording the Common Law of Annwyfn. And speaking of the Church, the Popes do not forget about the Christians who have departed for the end of the world. The Church appoints Bishops for Annwyfn, although its exact location is not exactly well-known, even in Wales. This is a ready-made situation for absentee Bishops well until the early thirteenth century. And so Christianity suffers among the Welsh of Annwyfn. Their priests are decidedly uncelibate and the priesthood becomes predominantly, but not exclusively, hereditary. The liturgy is rather peculiar by European standards. Latin has largely vanished and Mass is conducted in the vernacular, with the entire congregation receiving communion in both types. Once more sustained contact with Europe is established after da Conti's expedition, Rome dispatches a resident bishop and priests in an attempt to get the Annwyfnians back on the doctrinal reservation. Annwyfn, like the other European settlements, starts with subsistence agriculture, with land-use - villages surrounded by fields that are plowed in furlongs, with each household owning strips. The Annwyfnians also trade with their neighbors and buy salt, torsk [salted fish], wadmal [cloth], raw iron and other goods that make their way down the Yardina [Mississippi] River.
The Romans: Nova Roma {Approxamiatley East Texas...and border from OTL Fort Worth down to Laredo} Capital..Nova Palatina(OTL Houston)
Nova Roma, after several accidental shipwrecks and atlantic crossings have landed the Shipwrecked sailors and Merchants in Texans. The Romans have followed something liike the model used by the Spanish in their colonies. They have established themselves as the ruling class in what are, primarily, native societies, and forcibly imposed a veneer of Roman culture over the old native civilizations. Latin is in the process of replacing the various native tongues, much as Spanish did in the OTL. However, unlike the Spanish, they are interested in more than just looting the new lands of their mineral wealth, which has two effects on their colonization...they don’t expand as rapidly as the Spanish did (they don’t have reebooting expeditions going off into unexplored areas seeking "Lost Cities of Gold," for example), and the areas they do occupy are more heavily settled by Roman colonies. That and the sheer size and power of the Muslim Controlled Aztec Empire, forces the Romans to abandon their Imperlistic Polcies and profit from the Valuable Lumber trade with the Aztecs.
Would the changes introduced thus far prevent a group of Knights Templar under the command of Henry Templar from going to the Americas in 1398?
Here's a site examining a few possibilities and the archeological "evidence":
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm
By the way, when did we start talking about the Judeans and ancient Hebrews in this thread?
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa080700a.htm
By the way, when did we start talking about the Judeans and ancient Hebrews in this thread?
Historico said:
I don't think there is any real evidence for a 'Celtic' (oh god, how i hate that word) presence in the Americas. There have been a lot of theories and ideas about it including one a few years back about a 'lost' tribe of Britons who were supposedly a sea faring bunch who decided in 500AD (I think) to sail westwards local stock and barrel and set up settlements on the east coast (again I think). I do recall in the 18th and 19th centuries there were some finds of 'Celtic' objects (coins, bits of swords, etc) but they were always isolated with no nearby related finds and these days they are considered to be fakes, deliberately planted or even objects lost by Antiquarians.
I think you can argue isolated ships might have got across the ocean by accident and some might even have got back but I do feel that the only cultures that might have have long-term intentional contact, whether for trade or small scale colonisation, were the Chinese and Vikings. I don't think the Romans simply because of the distances involved and the fact that the Romans were not the greatest ocean going sailors-look at the panic that set in when it came to crossing the English Channel and even 200 years later I understand that a posting to the British Fleet was considered a dangerous posting because it mean sailing in the channel and on the north sea. I don't know enough about the Egyptians to say yea or nay. I suppsoe my bigegst problem is there is always a slight undercurrent of anti-natives in a lot of theories and evidence, e.g. the local Indians (or whatever) couldn't have achieved anything if these nice civilised foreigners from elsewhere hadn't taught them things. To me I find it amusing (in a non-funny sort of way) that whilst most people who come up with these theories will happily believe that every culture in Europe who could build a raft went to America at some stage and taught the locals some aspect of civilisation, only a very few will seriously consider the Chinese or any non-European culture doing the same.
I've sometimes mucked around with the idea of a Chinese presence on the Pacific Coast, a much stronger Norse presence on the Atlantic coast and the various native cultures scattered around.