ALL PRE-COLOMBIAN THEORIES ARE REAL

[Leo Caesius]

There was a written report, several years ago, that there was a ship wreck off the coast of South American, with several wine containers, its was reported that they could have been from the Roman era. Sorry can't remember the source of the story or the location.

I recall Patrick Huyghe mentioning something about that - it was reported located near Rio de Janeiro. It was supposedly discovered by a treasure hunter named Marx. The evidence for this consists of one piece of Late Roman North African Red Slip Wear, the "styrofoam" of the ancient world. Allegedly the Brazilian government "suppressed" the rest, because it would mean granting Brazilian citizenship to Italian guestworkers (huh?). There's something very suspicious about that. Brazil is known for having rather lax immigration laws, particularly for people from Europe.

Until we get an excavation report, however, I'll have to remain skeptical.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Let's get a rough list going. I'm sure that Historico can contribute much more to this:

Welsh Georgia
Norse/Vikings in Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland, Minnesota, Ontario, Guatemala
Phoenicians in New Hamsphire, Rhode Island, Maine, New Mexico, Paraguay, and Brazil.
Carthaginians in Kansas, Connecticut, Arkansas, and Alabama.
Judeans in Tennessee, New Mexico
Chinese in California, Oregon, Arizona, southern Mexico / Guatemala
Japanese/Jomon in Peru
"Libyans" in California, New Mexico, Texas, Iowa, Nevada
"Africans"/Mandingo in southern Mexico / Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil
Nubians in southern Mexico / Guatemala, Honduras.
Irish in Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland
"Celts" in area ranging from Colorado to Eastern Tennessee
"Muslims" in the Four Corners, Venezuela, Cuba, Mexico, Texas and Nevada. The descendants of the Muslim visitors of North America are members of the present Iroquois, Algonquin, Anasazi, Hohokam and Olmec (present Olmec?).
"Polynesians" on West Coast of Latin America
Mycenaeans in Cuba
Polynesian from Easter Island travel to South America.
Eskimo/Algonguian from Siberia/Asia? to Arctic coastal regions of North America to Greenland.
Basque fisherman travel to the Grand Banks and fish during the 1200 century.
Ottoman Empire trips to South America
Mandaeans in "Marikh"
Romans in Brazil and elsewhere (?)
Quivira from Greek Kabeiroi or Semitic Kabira "Great"?
Atlanteans all over the place (but predominantly in Central America)

Who else am I forgetting here?

 

[Dave Howery]

Africans in Latin America

 

[Historico]

Don't forget about Muslims, In the Four corners and Venezuela...But Here is some more Info I found on the Roman Shipwreck.

Romans in Brazil During the Second or Third Century?

Ex-marine and underwater explorer/archaeologist/treasure-hunter Robert Marx states rather flatly:

Amongst my most notable discover[ies] was that of a 2nd century BC Roman shipwreck in the Bay of Guanabara, near Rio de Janeiro. This is a discovery that has received little to no examination, much less validation, from the realm of mainstream archaeology, no doubt in part because Marx is not a Ph.D. archaeologist. Scouring the web for more information about this finding, I did find a reference to the discovery in an article from Dr. Elizabeth Lyding Will, an expert on Roman amphoras (clay vessels used to store and ship goods during the Roman era). Dr. Will apparently has a piece of an amphora recovered from Marx's Brazil discovery. Of it, she says:

The highly publicized amphoras Robert Marx found in the ship are in fact similar in shape to jars produced in kilns at Kouass, on the west coast of Morocco. The Rio jars look to be late versions of those jars, perhaps datable to the third century A.D. I have a large piece of one of the Rio jars, but no labs I have consulted have any clay similar in composition. So the edges of the earth for Rome, beyond India and Scotland and eastern Europe, remain shrouded in mystery. Information about this find is practically non existent. Gary Fretz's synopsis of the "whole story" suggests that the find has been suppressed by the Brazilian government:

At the time the amphorae were confirmed to be "Roman", the large Italian faction in Brazil were extremely excited about this news. The Italian ambassador to Brazil notified the Brazilian government that, since the Romans were the first to "discover" Brazil, then all Italian immigrants should be granted immediate citizenship. There are a large number of Italian immigrants in Brazil and the government has created a tedious and costly citizenship application procedure for Italians that does not apply to Portuguese immigrants. The Brazilian government would not give in and the Italians in Brazil staged demonstrations. In response, the Brazilian government ordered all civilians off the recovery project and censored further news about the wreck hoping to diffuse the civil unrest. Finally, I've also seen mention of the following written works, which I've yet to dig up: Marx R.F., 1984 , Romans in Rio? [see Santarelli A. Mondo Sommerso 270 1983:252-3. Oceans, 17.4: 18-21.] The Romans in Rio book (?) is not among the works of Robert Marx as listed at Amazon.

 

[Historico]

And Don't forget about the Myceneans visiting Senegal, the Land of the Lotus-Eaters and Havana, Cuba.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Yep, that's pretty much what I said. Until I see an excavation report, I'm going to assume that this Marx character produced two amphoras from his own collection and claimed that they originated in this shipwreck that nobody else has ever seen. My museum has a few such amphoras itself, although most of our finds from the recent expedition to the Eastern Mediterranean went to Woods' Hole Oceanographic Institute, as my boss, Larry, excavated the site with "Captain Bob" Ballard.

Note also that Marx dates the shipwreck to the 1st c. CE, whereas the ceramist (who was presumably trained in this field) dates them to the 3rd c. CE. That's a huge difference.

Part of the problem here is that people don't take archaeology seriously enough. They assume that anyone can become an archaeologist, as long as they have a spade and a spiffy hat. The fact of the matter is that archaeology is a science - perhaps not an exact science, but a science none the less. It's not something you can learn from watching reruns on the Discovery channel.

You wouldn't want an amateur doctor performing surgery on you, would you? Well, I for sure am not going to put my faith in amateur archaeologists' claims of discoveries of earthshattering importance. If they want to rewrite the history books, they have to play by the rules - they need to be trained in proper methodology and they need to publish their findings in a reputable, peer-reviewed venue. Otherwise, they could (and probably will) be playing fast and free with the "facts."

 

[Leo Caesius]

And Don't forget about the Myceneans visiting Senegal, the Land of the Lotus-Eaters and Havana, Cuba.

Senegal isn't in the Americas.

 

[orion900]

Other Peoples/Other Theories

Let's get a rough list going. I'm sure that Historico can contribute much more to this:

Welsh Georgia
Norse/Vikings in Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland, Minnesota, Ontario, Guatemala
Phoenicians in New Hamsphire, Rhode Island, Maine, New Mexico, Paraguay, and Brazil.
Carthaginians in Kansas, Connecticut, Arkansas, and Alabama.
Judeans in Tennessee, New Mexico
Chinese in California, Oregon, Arizona, southern Mexico / Guatemala
Japanese/Jomon in Peru
"Libyans" in California, New Mexico, Texas, Iowa, Nevada
"Africans" in southern Mexico / Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil
Irish in Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland
"Celts" in area ranging from Colorado to Eastern Tennessee
"Muslims" in the Four Corners, Venezuela, Cuba, Mexico, Texas and Nevada. The descendants of the Muslim visitors of North America are members of the present Iroquois, Algonquin, Anasazi, Hohokam and Olmec (present Olmec?).

Who else am I forgetting here?


1.Polynesian from Easter Island travel to South America.
2.Eskimo/Algonguian from Siberia/Asia? to Arctic coastal regions of North America to Greenland.
3.Basques fisherman travel to the Grand Banks and fish during the 1200 century.
4.Ottoman Empire trips to South America, there was a map make of the area around 1400 century.

 

[Leo Caesius]

That's the 1512 Piri Reis Map that you're referring to. Piri Reis allegedly compiled his map from those of earlier cartographers. I have no doubt that the Ottoman archives were already quite extensive (they're mindblowingly large today) so that's credible. Still, we need not assume that Piri Reis or any other Ottoman visited the New World to design the maps - he might have had an annotated copy of an ancient Phoenician one handy.

 

[Historico]

We have the Romans in Maine and Texas

Alabama...Ancient Syracuse

 

[Leo Caesius]

Here's a rough map of what we have so far, for others to work with (I'm not interested in doing a TL).

 

[Thande]

I'm rather sad that there's no conspiracy theory about the Anglo-Saxons in America (a la Tolkien, sort of). Maybe nothing as grand as the Viking or Irish stuff, but perhaps it would be fun if we uncovered evidence that the Anglo-Saxons had settled the Falkland Islands in about 300 AD, before they even settled Britain...

 

[Historico]

Thanks for the map Leo...It's right where I expected It.

 

[orion900]

That's the 1512 Piri Reis Map that you're referring to. Piri Reis allegedly compiled his map from those of earlier cartographers. I have no doubt that the Ottoman archives were already quite extensive (they're mindblowingly large today) so that's credible. Still, we need not assume that Piri Reis or any other Ottoman visited the New World to design the maps - he might have had an annotated copy of an ancient Phoenician one handy.

If the Ottoman Empire had trade missions to Asia, and India, and they had trade missions to central Africa region, wouldn't they had make it to the New World......

 

[orion900]

Yep, that's pretty much what I said. Until I see an excavation report, I'm going to assume that this Marx character produced two amphoras from his own collection and claimed that they originated in this shipwreck that nobody else has ever seen. My museum has a few such amphoras itself, although most of our finds from the recent expedition to the Eastern Mediterranean went to Woods' Hole Oceanographic Institute, as my boss, Larry, excavated the site with "Captain Bob" Ballard.

Note also that Marx dates the shipwreck to the 1st c. CE, whereas the ceramist (who was presumably trained in this field) dates them to the 3rd c. CE. That's a huge difference.

Part of the problem here is that people don't take archaeology seriously enough. They assume that anyone can become an archaeologist, as long as they have a spade and a spiffy hat. The fact of the matter is that archaeology is a science - perhaps not an exact science, but a science none the less. It's not something you can learn from watching reruns on the Discovery channel.

You wouldn't want an amateur doctor performing surgery on you, would you? Well, I for sure am not going to put my faith in amateur archaeologists' claims of discoveries of earthshattering importance. If they want to rewrite the history books, they have to play by the rules - they need to be trained in proper methodology and they need to publish their findings in a reputable, peer-reviewed venue. Otherwise, they could (and probably will) be playing fast and free with the "facts."

Sad, but true an Amateur will find what he is looking for, an archaeologist is look for what he finds, and there are many rules and proper methodology which not completed correctly can destroy important evidence of the past.

 

[Leo Caesius]

Six Flags Over Merikh

Here are two cities/regions I've thought about:

Mandaeans: Region: Mshuni Koshta (OTL Mississippi River Delta), Capital: Merikh (OTL New Orleans). The central sacrament of the Mandaean religion is the Baptism, which can only be conducted in living (=flowing) water. The river in which they conduct this baptism is called the Yardna (=Jordan), hence OTL Mississippi is ATL Yardna. The Mandaeans form a plurality of the population of Merikh, accompanied by large groups of Yauni (OTL Greeks), Rumayyi (OTL Romans), and Puni (OTL Carthaginians, Libyans, Celtiberians).

Arabs: Region: Emirate of Banduqah (OTL Venezuela), Capital: Banduqah (OTL Maracaibo). The Arabs named their chief settlement Banduqah ("Little Venice") after the settlements built above Lake Maracaibo on small stilts, reminiscent of Venice in Italy.

 

[Historico]

thanks Leo...But could you help me on some of the Punic Settlements in the americas?

 

[Leo Caesius]

Well, as I mentioned before, the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians were most interested in establishing settlements either on a bay that could easily be protected, or on an island directly opposite the coast. They are not the type to penetrate very far inland; generally they operated through intermediaries. In fact, they're more likely to deputize some other group to do their dirty work. Carthaginian settlements more often than not have the character of a trading entrepot and not a metropolis; if a city does develop, it's almost always in cooperation with the substrate population, and dominated by a kind of mestizo class.

 

[Historico]

Well, as I mentioned before, the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians were most interested in establishing settlements either on a bay that could easily be protected, or on an island directly opposite the coast. They are not the type to penetrate very far inland; generally they operated through intermediaries. In fact, they're more likely to deputize some other group to do their dirty work. Carthaginian settlements more often than not have the character of a trading entrepot and not a metropolis; if a city does develop, it's almost always in cooperation with the substrate population, and dominated by a kind of mestizo class.

So the Punics on the New England Coasts probably wouldn't unite and establish an mostly Punic Region in the North? The Land of the Long Winter in Punic would that be suitable?

 

[Leo Caesius]

So the Punics on the New England Coasts probably wouldn't unite and establish an mostly Punic Region in the North? The Land of the Long Winter in Punic would that be suitable?

I suspect not. The prefered Punic government was the city-state; they'd have no interest in controlling vast tracts of territory and certainly no interest in driving out other groups (bad for business, that). Eventually, I suspect, they'd probably become overwhelmed by the other populations, but they might be able to wrangle some special privileges for their cities out of their new overlords (as they did with the Assyrians and the Achaemenids).

For a truly Punic "empire," you need one of the following two scenarios: a group of autonomous city states in a mercantile network that becomes dominated by one (the "Carthaginian" scenario) OR a substrate population in an area free from influence from other cultures that becomes sufficiently punicized to effectively become a Punic successor (this, I suspect, would have eventually been the state of affairs in Numidia and Tripolitania had the Romans not intervened).