ALL PRE-COLOMBIAN THEORIES ARE REAL

Well doesn't that mean that Odessyes was not Ahhiywan(Achaean) but in fact was celtic but establish contact with the New World. So basically since the six hundred year strech between the voyage of Odyssess and the Nubians is roughly 500 years, so the Nubians would find an Native tribe in Hispania worshiping Greek Gods and probably ruled by an Great King(Democracy would'nt come around for centuries after Troy)

Also Strategos...Eratosthenes of the greek city of Cyrene would have undoubtly used Greek merchants and a mix of Libyan and Greek sailors on several of Trireme's to prove his circumnavigation points. After some of the Greek Vessels find their way to the Maori Islands, use the Polypenisan ships and land in the San Fransico Bay and establish an colony of Strong Greek Heritage on the West Coast.
 
David S Poepoe said:
- which is the primary reason 'serious scholars' don't accept the theories of pre-Columbian contact.
actually, the reason mainstream historians reject most pre-columbian contact ideas is not because of 'the establishment', it's because there really is little irrefutable hard evidence of it... which is why the Jomon and Polynesian theories are regarded a little higher than the others. Most theories are based on the written word alone, which is not really proof. There have been coins and other artifacts supposedly found... but usually by laymen, not archeaologists or historians. The reason that Viking voyages are accepted is simple; a real historian found the site at L'anse Aux Meadows. Do you think anyone would accept the idea if some ordinary schmoe dug up the site, found the cloak pin and spindle whorl found there, and tried to present them as genuine? If this had happened, Viking voyages to the New World would still be catagorized as 'not proven'. I'm not saying that other pre-columbian voyages didn't happen. But until teams of actual historians/archeologists dig up sites and find actual proof, they simply aren't going to be accepted as proven.
 
Strategos' Risk said:
I think I might not be making a map, after all. Instead, anyone want to help me make a chart of all these claims? Should be interesting.

Well, I am in the beggining stages of making an Tl...by Chart do you mean an actual chart or Tl? Because I would gladly help on the "Chart" or annyone willing to help me on this TL...
 
The Lost Fleet

THE PRECOLUMBIAN AMERICAS TL, Part One: 746-600 BCE:

c.a 740 BCE :For many years, Egypt has been a fragmented land, with as many as four rival dynasties ruling at the same time from cities such as Tanis, Sais, Leontopolis, Herakleopolis, Hermopolis, Thebes, and Memphis. But in about 740 BC, this is about to change due to outside intervention. King Piankhi of Kush leads his army northward, and conquers Egypt as far north as Thebes. Within a few years he receives oaths of loyalty from the various rival kings of Egypt, effectively unifying the country for the first time in a century and a half. Under his dynasty, the 25th (Kushite) Dynasty, Egypt will begin to take an active role in the affairs of the middle east once more.

688-663 BCE: Reign of Pharaoh Taharka I over Kush, during his lenglthy reign he will attempt to establish permanent Kushite Control in Palestine. He will also be memorable for sending out his massive "Lost" Fleet in an attempt to discover more valuable Gold and Iron mounds further south.

c.a. 675 BCE: Pharaoh Taharka upon hearing the stories of Hatsephpsut's Voyage to the Southern Territory of Punt hires an large crew of mostly Native Nubian and Egyptian Shipwrights to explore the Eastern Coast of Africa.

670-667 BCE: The Kushite Exploration fleet set's sail from an Port north of the Red Sea. Ten Large ships about 100 feet long. Each Ship had an Large Sail and was rowed by 50 Oarsmen. These ships were designed for sailing on the open sead. The Mast was positioned in the middle of the ship and a Helmsman standing in the stern, sterred the ship with two Big Oars. During the first Checkpoint of Punt, The ships never strayed far from the coast. At sunset, The sailors moored in sheltered harbors and spent the night ashore. Finally upon Reaching Punt's shores, the Nubian Ambasador Animedek gave gifts to the Cheif of Punt. The ships became laden with the treasures of Punt, and all the beautiful plants of the Divine Land, with heaps of Incense, with great Myrrh trees, with ebony and pure ivory, with gold from Amu, with sweet-scented woods, with all the manner incense and eye pigments, with Horses, babbons, mokeys and greyhounds, with skins of the southern panter, and with slaves and their children. Still Taharka asked them to continue further south and were able to establish contacts with the Haibru Tributary of Ophir in South Africa and were occampied by Gold Ingiots and Pygmies. Upon sailing around the Cape of Good Hope, the Fleet is caught in a viscous storm and drifts along West African Coast untill swept by the Ocean current allowing them to "Go With the Flow". The Nubians Without stored food or water, taking only a small net, fishing line and hook, and a large and small harpoon, were able to survive the Atlantic Crossing. However several die of Malnurishment and Sickness and finally Animedek lands in the Port of San Salvador in the Bahamas.


Animedek and his "Settlers arrive an set up an small trading settlement on the Island and capture several Proto-Taino and establish peacful Relations with the Natives. Animedek writes himself "The Island of Taharkis, with is Tall Trees, Gorgeous Birds, a beautiful Beach and friendly Peoples." He also Wrote using Animal Skins and Scribes "They Remained so much our friends that it was a marvel:...They came swimming to the Ships's boats, and brought us parrots and cotton thread...and many other things." In return for the Taino...The Nubians introduced and steady flow of Gold, many Natives begin the breeding of Horses,written Language and the other African Animals brought along on the Trip.



667 and Onward BCE: Nubian Expansion throught the Carribean, Under the Wise leadership of Animedek...The Nubian Colonisits (Kushites,Egyptians,Puntites, and the Pygmies of Ophir) All are able to establish successful communties on the islands of New Nubia. Against the warrior canibals The Caribs, The Colonies implement the stanrard Kushite Army using their Bronze Weapons, Their light Chariot force blows the primitive Caribs out of the Water. The Caribs are subdued by the Dark Skinned Centaurs(The Nubian Calvary). The Caribs possessed may canoes, which before the time of the Nubian Arrival, they overran all the isles of the Carribean and steal all they can. They Superior Nubian Navy built by the forests of New Kerma are finally able to subdue the Carribs and are gradualy intergrated into the formal Nubian Realm. They Build Grand Temples dedicated to the Great God Amun and cheif god of the Hybrid religon of the Egyptian and Taino Pantheons. To limit confusion, Animedek builds schools to teach the Nubian Children and the Natives, the Egyptian/Kushite language and Hieroglyphical Writing Systems. Animedek during his reign sets up an stable, and mostly peaceful Realm in the Carribean.


667 and Onward BCE :The smallpox outbreak of 667-635 which kills many of the Native Cultures upon contact with the Nubians, Smallpox is justthe first of several over the course of th rest of this century. In addition to smallpox, Old orld Diseases like measles and malaria will also make their appearance in the empire. As a result, the overall population of the Taino and Xi which stood at nearly 8 million at the arrival of the Nubians in 667 BCE, will fall to less than four million within the next two decades. But, as immunity to the diseases gradually takes hold in the population, the population will rebound and by the end of the century will stand at over ten million and growing rapidly.

666 BCE: The Proto-Taino of Taharkis(Or The Asiatics by the Nubians) tell the Provencial Govenor of Taharkis of an huge island they call Colba(Cuba). Animedek will document that these Asiatics were ornaments of Gold and seem to be strange fire eaters. The Nubians are overwhelemed by these sensation of burning Tobacco and the other wonderful Spices of the Carribean.

Later on that year, the Asiatics take Animedek to the island in which he calls New Kerma(The Egyptians names for the Kushites)(Hispaniola). "New Kerma is full of trees of endless Variteies, so high that they seem to touch the sky , and I have been told that they never loose their foliage. Some of them were covered with blossoms, some with fruit...There are palm trees of six or eight varities....There are wonderful pinewoods, and very extensive Riegns of meadowland. There is honey, and there are many kinds of birds, and a great variety of fruits...For the Isle of New Kush is a marvel." Animedek writes.

"The Asiatics are well made men of commending stature, they appear extradorniarly timid. The only arms they have are stick of cane cut when in seed, with a sharpend end, and they are afraid to use these. They believe that I come from heaven...wherever I went they ran from house to house crying out, Come! Come! and see the men from Heaven.


640 BCE: Animedek, Proveincal Govenor dies...His Title is passed down to his son Piye.

638 BCE: Piye, searching for lands west of the Nubian Isles...sets out on an grand Naval Expedition in search of it. They land on the Southern Mexican coastline near the Olmec City of La Venta. Piye writes "The Asiatic peoples known as the Xi, have established and Great Civiliazation...Those three major Xi centers are spaced from east to west across the domain so that each center could exploit, control, and provide a distinct set of natural resources valuable to the overall Xi economy. La Venta, the eastern center, is near the rich estuaries of the coast, and also could have provided cacao, rubber, and salt. San Lorenzo, at the center of the Xi domain, controlled the vast flood plain area of Coatzacoalcos basin and riverline trade routes. Laguna de los Cerros, adjacent to the Tuxtlas mountains, is positioned near important sources of basalt, a stone needed to manufacture manos, metates, and monuments. Strong marriage alliances between Xi centers helped maintain such an exchange network. The Great city of La Venta and its ruler The Great Chix-Tok, gave me an grand tour of the Massive Pyramind and My own Associated in the Great Rubber Ball Game. They chisled our faces out of Basalt and created massive Stone Heads dedicated to us. We Shall establish many fruitfil colones in this Great Land."

625-600 BCE: They Came, The Saw, and they Conquered, "Those Bastard Asiatices under the Leadership Epi-Nae gathered there Warriors using Our Weapons, Our Horses, and Our Armour against use. They Burned our settlements and sold our Nubian Population living in their territories to the Cannibalistic tribes of the South. I, Nehsi Grand Naval Commander of the Nubian Military write as I accompany my Soldiers into the heat of Battle with these Asiatics who fight with souch Passion and Stamina." Nehsi Wrote before the Grand battle of San Lorenzo which the Nubians were forced to leave their colonies in Mexico and travel back into the Carribean. Intermit Warfare will take place between the Two powers for the next Twenty five untill the econmic and Poltical strain of War takes it's tall on the Xi of Mexico leading to it's collapse in 600 BCE.

617 BCE: Piye, Proveincal Govenor dies, his title is passed down to his son Perehu.

610 BCE: Perehu, on an Naval Patrol of Taharkis discovers the Floridian Pennisula, and land's near OTL's Saint Augustine. Perehu unlike his forefather's was truly unique, he tremnt of Gold and other Riches Day in and Day out. His part were welcomed by the natives and were even invited to an Grand Party. Perehu writes " In the flickering torchlight, dozens of figures danced in the sand. Some were the locals, tall strong men, short-haired and clean-shaven, clad in loose linen shirts and knee-length breeches, and statuesque, women with long, shapely arms and legs in light sleeveless linen tunics and short skirts, with fair hair tumbling down their backs and shoulders. We looked at those women, flirting and dancing with his officers and men, he knew he was going to have a rough time getting his crews back onto the ships. The women here were very, VERY interested in the sudden appearance of so many dark-haired, olive-skinned, sinewy sea-farers and, in the two weeks that the Nubians had Landed. I hesitantly at the native Dish, A mix of white rice, shredded chicken and vegetables, swimming in a red sauce. He had watched the women make the sauce - there was some round, red, watery vegetable that they peeled, chopped up and thoroughly mashed before pouring into the pot to cook over a low fire.According to the headman, men of the village took to their boats and hunted the islands to the south for the peppers, little oblong red, green and yellow things, which they then either dried and ground into powder or chopped up fresh and added straight into the pot. I chewed my food throughly, and bite into a chunk of pepper. The heat explodes into his mouth and nostrils, so he slugs back a half-mug of the locals' excellent berry wine..." Perehu soon traded his few items with natives and promisied of his return

610 and Onward BCE: Colonization of Florida, The spread from small miltary outposts to full fledged settlemts is very slow. Many Nubian Citzens remebering the Unsuccessfullness of the Mexican Colonies are very hesitant to settle the area. Over, Time The Nubians willl spread across the Pennisula wgaing several wars across the Pennisula against the Nati Trbes(Proto-Creeks) untill finally conquering the Area in 500 BCE.

600 BCE: Perehu, Nubian Provencial Governor dies in battle with the Nati, his tittle is succeeded to his childhood friend Smenkare. Smenkare will be an intense Military Leader who will encourage several building pojects throught his reign, reorganize the Nubian Military and increasing the size of the Nubian Navy which shall be needed...to protect the Nubians from the newest threat from the east...
 
Derek Jackson said:
It is quite possible that there were Old World crossings of the Atlantic before 1492. However in OTL if that happened it made no difference. Contact was not maintained. Plainly if such had been maintained the histories of Europe, Africa and the Americas would be different.

Yes.

There's a story that, years ago (long before the l'Anse au Meadow excavations) some Minnesotans showed up at Columbus Day festivities in NYC and started raising a ruckus about Leif Erickson. The Italian-American politician on the podium finally said, "Yeah, but when Columbus discovered America, it stayed discovered." :D

Columbus may not have been the first person to discover America, but he was unquestionably the last.

-- Rick
 
Neo/Nubian-Americans

There is a story of Monks from Wales traveling to the West in small boats, approximately 600's. I do not know the source of the Story.

Would like to see contact with the Mississippi mound builders, and what about having the Nubians make contact with tribes to the north. They would also start colonies toward south American. Have contact with South American tribes/culture.

Great Story line, want to see more....
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Those were the Irish - St. Brendan and Co.

The Welsh that you're thinking of are Madoc ap Owain Glendwr and his followers, who allegedly landed in Georgia, IIRC, and founded the Mandan tribe of Indians, whose vocabulary contains a few lexical items that sound almost Welsh (the word for "fish," for example, is pisg (allegedly identical to Welsh pysg) and they use buffalo hide boats that are similar, in the proper light, at just the right angle, and if you squint a big, to the Welsh corwyg, which is Mandan is called koorig.
 

Thande

Donor
Hmm, true, but the Brendan legends seem to suggest Brendan voyaged to America after hearing about it from earlier Irish sea voyagers.

Tolkien had a wonderful but sadly unpublished (until now) treatment of this, involving this poem about St Brendan's voyage:

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien said:
The Death of Saint Brendan

At last out of the deep seas he passed,
and mist rolled on the shore;
under clouded moon the waves were loud,
as the laden ship him bore
to Ireland, back to wood and mire,
to the tower tall and grey,
where the knell of Cluian-ferta's bell
tolled in the green Galway.
Where Shannon down to Lough Derg ran
under a rainclad sky
Saint Brendan came to his journey's end
to await his hour to die.

'O! tell me, father, for I loved you well,
if still you have words for me,
of things strange in the remembering
in the long and lonely sea,
of islands by deep spells beguiled
where dwell the Elven-kind:
in seven long years the road to Heaven
or the Living Land did you find?'

'The things I have seen, the many things,
have long now faded far;
only three come clear now back to me:
a Cloud, a Tree, a Star.
We sailed for a year and a day and hailed
no field nor coast of mean;
no boat nor bird saw we ever afloat
for forty days and ten.
We saw no sun at set or dawn,
but a dun cloud lay ahead,
and a drumming there was like thunder coming
and a gleam of fiery red.

Upreared from sea to cloud then sheer
a shoreless mountain stood;
its sides were black from the sullen tide
to the red lining of its hood.
No cloak of cloud, no lowering smoke,
no looming storm of thunder
in the world of men saw I ever unfurled
like the pall that we passed under.
We turned away, and we left astern
the rumbling and the gloom;
then the smoking cloud asunder broke,
and we saw the Tower of Doom:
in its ashen head was a crown of red,
where the fishes flamed and fell.
Tall as a column in High Heaven's hall,
its feet were deep as Hell;
grounded in chasms the water drowned
and buried long ago,
it stands, I ween, in forgotten lands
where the kings of kings lie low.

We sailed then on, till the wind had failed,
and we toiled then with the oar,
and hunger an thirst us sorely wrung,
and we sang our psalms no more.
A land at last with a silver strand
at the end of strenght we found;
the waves were singing in pillared caves
and pearls lay on the ground;
and steep the shores went upward leaping
to slopes of green and gold,
and a stream out of rich and teeming
through a coomb of shadow rolled.

Through gates of stone we rowed in haste,
and passed and left the sea;
and silence like dew fell in that isle,
and holy it seemed to be.
As a green cup, deep in a brim of green,
that with wine the white sun fills
was the land we found, and we saw there stand
on a laund between the hills
a tree more fair than ever I deemed
might climb in Paradise;
its foot was like a great tower's root,
it height beyond men's eyes;
so wide its branches, the least could hold
in shade an acre long,
and they rose as steep as mountain-snows
those boughs so broad and strong;
for white as a winter to my sight
the leaves of that tree were,
they grew more close than swan-wing plumes,
all long and soft and fair.

We deemed then, maybe, as in a dream,
that time had passed away
and our journey ended; for no return
we hoped, but there to stay.
In the silence of that hollow isle,
in the stillness, then we sang-
softly us seemed, but the sound aloft
like a pealing organ rang.
Then trembled the tree from crown to stem;
from the limbs the leaves in air
as white birds fled in wheeling flight,
and left the branches bare.
From the the sky came dropping down on high
a music not of bird,
not voice of man, nor angel's voice;
but maybe there is a third
fair kindred in the world yet lingers
beyond the foundered land.
Yet steep are the seas and the waters deep
beyond the White-tree Strand.'

'O! stay now father! There's more to say.
But two things you have told:
The Tree, the Cloud; but you spoke of three.
The Star in mind you hold?'
'The Star? Yes, I saw it, high and far,
at the parting of the ways,
a light on the edge of the Outer Night
like silver set ablaze,
where the round world plunges steeply down,
but on the old road goes,
as an unseen bridge that on the arches runs
to coasts than no man knows.'

'But men say, father that ere the end
you went where none have been.
I would here you tell me, father dear,
of the last land you have seen.'

'In my mind the Star I still can find,
and the parting of the seas,
and the breath as sweet and keen as death
that was borne upon the breeze.
But where they they bloom those flowers fair,
in what air or land they grow,
what words beyond the world I heard,
if you would seek to know,
in a boat then, brother, far afloat
you must labour in the sea,
and find for yourself things out of mind:
you will learn no more of me.'

In Ireland, over wood and mire,
in the tower tall and grey,
the knell of Cluain-ferta's bell
was tolling in green Galway.
Saint Brendan had come to his life's end
under a rainclad sky,
and journeyed whence no ship returns,
and his bones in Ireland lie.
 
Leo Caesius said:
Those were the Irish - St. Brendan and Co.

The Welsh that you're thinking of are Madoc ap Owain Glendwr and his followers, who allegedly landed in Georgia, IIRC, and founded the Mandan tribe of Indians, whose vocabulary contains a few lexical items that sound almost Welsh (the word for "fish," for example, is pisg (allegedly identical to Welsh pysg) and they use buffalo hide boats that are similar, in the proper light, at just the right angle, and if you squint a big, to the Welsh corwyg, which is Mandan is called koorig.


Thank you for the reply, what was the source for the information? Who was St. Brendan and Co.?

What about Hard Evidence, Ship Wrecks, old sites, coins, metal Items, is there any real hard proof of Pre-Viking Discovery?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
orion900 said:
Thank you for the reply, what was the source for the information? Who was St. Brendan and Co.?

What about Hard Evidence, Ship Wrecks, old sites, coins, metal Items, is there any real hard proof of Pre-Viking Discovery?
St. Brendan was an Irish monk who wrote an account of a voyage in the Atlantic, in which he encountered a number of things answering to the description of whales and icebergs, and which lasted seven years. In answer to your second question, in my estimation, no, we don't have any good evidence, not as far as "hard proof" goes. There's plenty of information, but all of it is compromised, IMHO.

I'm a trained epigrapher and I've been examining the inscriptions claimed to be evidence for pre-Columbian/pre-Viking contact for many years now, and none of them stand up to scrutiny. I recently had a call from a radio host in SLC who had been under tremendous pressure from the Mormons with regards to these inscriptions, and discussed the information I had at great length with him. He was extremely thankful for the new information, but was somewhat upset that scholars such as myself had addressed this evidence but not in a public forum. This is unfortunately one of the problems with academia; we don't often make ourselves accessible to the public, and when an information vacuum arises, misinformation has a tendency to creep in.

The coins that have been found thus far are often found in questionable contexts or are even unprovenanced, and as such they cannot be admitted in any serious discussion of the topic. Even when something is found in an archaeological excavation (such as the Bat Creek stone), one must always examine the background and biases of the excavators and those who had access to the archaeological site.

If we were to find an archaeological site that was indisputably pre-Contact - say, a fortress in Georgia with Welsh pottery or some kind of Chinese trading colony on the West Coast - it would get published. It would constitute irrefutable evidence of cultural diffusion. Unfortunately nothing like that has ever been found. The closest to it, I suppose, would be the Jomon period pottery that was found in Peru, but even that might have somehow ended up in a ship's ballast and moved from Japan to Peru in more modern times.
 
Leo Caesius said:
The closest to it, I suppose, would be the Jomon period pottery that was found in Peru, but even that might have somehow ended up in a ship's ballast and moved from Japan to Peru in more modern times.
a possibility, but IIRC, some of it was found legitimately in excavations of ancient Peruvian villages, so it could still be a possibility.... while it's still not approved by most historians, the Jomon contact is the closest to acceptance ...
 
Leo Caesius said:
St. Brendan was an Irish monk who wrote an account of a voyage in the Atlantic, in which he encountered a number of things answering to the description of whales and icebergs, and which lasted seven years. .
his chronicle also has a description of a place that sounds much like a coral sea (which would be found only off Bermuda in the Atlantic, IIRC)
 
Donald duck story ends strange.

The story of donald duck was a nice story about who owned amerika. It was a logical and nice story only the ending was strange and very illogical. In the ending they found evidence hat the phoeniceans went to amerika but were dead when they arived. subsequently those (amerikan) indians went and visited europe. sugesting the crasy idea that al europe was owened bij those (amerikan) indians. It was however the first place where i heared from al those other people who could have reached america.

Evertjan van de Kaa
 
Leo Caesius said:
St. Brendan was an Irish monk who wrote an account of a voyage in the Atlantic, in which he encountered a number of things answering to the description of whales and icebergs, and which lasted seven years. In answer to your second question, in my estimation, no, we don't have any good evidence, not as far as "hard proof" goes. There's plenty of information, but all of it is compromised, IMHO.

I'm a trained epigrapher and I've been examining the inscriptions claimed to be evidence for pre-Columbian/pre-Viking contact for many years now, and none of them stand up to scrutiny. I recently had a call from a radio host in SLC who had been under tremendous pressure from the Mormons with regards to these inscriptions, and discussed the information I had at great length with him. He was extremely thankful for the new information, but was somewhat upset that scholars such as myself had addressed this evidence but not in a public forum. This is unfortunately one of the problems with academia; we don't often make ourselves accessible to the public, and when an information vacuum arises, misinformation has a tendency to creep in.

The coins that have been found thus far are often found in questionable contexts or are even unprovenanced, and as such they cannot be admitted in any serious discussion of the topic. Even when something is found in an archaeological excavation (such as the Bat Creek stone), one must always examine the background and biases of the excavators and those who had access to the archaeological site.

If we were to find an archaeological site that was indisputably pre-Contact - say, a fortress in Georgia with Welsh pottery or some kind of Chinese trading colony on the West Coast - it would get published. It would constitute irrefutable evidence of cultural diffusion. Unfortunately nothing like that has ever been found. The closest to it, I suppose, would be the Jomon period pottery that was found in Peru, but even that might have somehow ended up in a ship's ballast and moved from Japan to Peru in more modern times.


I know of the Jomon pottery and the Maori evidence of Precolumbian contact in the Americas...It is the coestince of the most prominent Precolumbian theory's culture coexsiting in the Americas. Leaving an strong impact on the Americas, to the point of an vastly different world from which the Europeans encounter.
 
Ship Wreck off South American

There was a written report, several years ago, that there was a ship wreck off the coast of South American, with several wine containers, its was reported that they could have been from the Roman era. Sorry can't remember the source of the story or the location.
 
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