All of the Rhineland part of a Dutch state

By Rhineland, however, I don't mean just the German Rhineland, but also all the land east of the Meuse River in France. Basically, historical Lotharingia, from the Netherlands to the Swiss Border. And it has to be under a state that is recognizably the counterpart to the Netherlands of OTL.

(The usage of the term historical Lotharingia does not imply I want a medieval POD, but that would be fine.)
 
Have the Duchy of Burgundy survive past the 1400s might help.

Yes. Charles the Bold has a son with Margaret of York and is crowned King Charles I of Burgundy. Then their son could marry Anne of Brittany. Charles I would conquer Lorraine and Alsace.
 
This might sound unrealistic, but I think it could be possible, with a couple of differences or unlikely events to have the Netherlands be some sort of European counterpart to the US, meaning a decentralised, if not wholly confederal republic which can accept new states willing to join the republic. Say the Dutch win their independence from Spain sooner, with (most of) the 17 provinces joining the Republic. Now, say the HRE loses a lot of power due to an alt-30 years war and the small states in the Lorraine/Alsace area decide a confederal Netherlands is preferable to f.i. expansionist centralised France.

ASB?
 
By Rhineland, however, I don't mean just the German Rhineland, but also all the land east of the Meuse River in France. Basically, historical Lotharingia, from the Netherlands to the Swiss Border. And it has to be under a state that is recognizably the counterpart to the Netherlands of OTL.

Omnia Hapsburgia est divisa in partes tres.

Charles V has three sons (Philip, Charles, and Ferdinand, and divides the Hapsburg heritage among them as follows:

  • Philip: Spain, Naples, Sicily, Sardinia, and Milan
  • Charles: Austria and neighboring dominions, Hungary, and the Imperial title
  • Ferdinand: The Low Countries and Franche-Comté
Ferdinand turns Protestant. During the Reformation, the Bishoprics of Liége and Strasbourg and the Archbishoprics of Treves and Cologne are secularized after conversion of the locals to Calvinism. and become parts of Nederland. Nederland becomes an independent Kingdom in the 1600s; cedes Franche-Comté to France, but acquires Lorraine in return.

Julich and Cleves can be had whenever Nederland is on a roll under a strong king. I can't think of a good way for Nederland to acquire the Palatinate.
 
@ Rich Rostrom: by the time Charles V would be able to divide his lands amongst his sons ITTL, his younger brother (with a large family of his own IOTL) ruled the Austrian Hereditary Lands (521) and the kingdoms of Bohemia (1526) and Hungary (1526, but not undisputed), he also was king of the Romans (1531).

Anyway a three way division could have been:
Philip: Spain and the Colonies (and the claim on Portugal) and Sardinia* (*= might instead also go to Charles)
Charles: Naples, Sicily and Milan
Ferdinand: The Burgundian Lands (the Low Countries and Franche Comté).

Whether or not TTL Ferdinand becomes protestant, it might happen; however Charles V probably wants his ancestral lands to go to a son of him, who's a good Catholic.

One idea is that the Valois-Burgundy dukes survive longer and maybe manage to acquire a crown, which would make it a kingdom in the Empire (like Bohemia); also it would only encompass Imperial territories, but each kingdom will get all those territories attached to it. IMHO have the negotiations Philip the Good had about this succeed, might be more interesting.
There are a few possibilities for a Crown:
- Lotharingia: but under the rule of Philip the Good (or Charles the Bold) this would also mean certain claims on other imperial princes, something they won't appreciate from the Emperor (to put it mildly). Concluding probably not.
- Frisia (AKA Friesland): in pre Carolingian times kings had ruled in this area (Roughly the coastal area of the Netherlands), so it would mean reviving an existing title (this might add to legitimacy). At this point it would mean the transfer of the overlordship over the Frisian Lands (at this point roughly from the modern day Dutch province of Friesland to German East Friesland); this seems possible.
- Burgundy: the kingdom also used to be known as Arelat (or Arles), but that wouldn't be appropriate for this incarnation. At this point most of the Arelat was under French control, so this Crown had become mostly titular. The part the Burgundian dukes controlled was the Franche Comté ('Free' County Palatine of Burgundy), however territories could 'travel'; for instance from the Stem duchy of Saxony to the Electorate of Saxony (most of the latter was situated in the old Thuringian March and did nor retain much Saxon lands). If the Emperor would grant this still prestigious Crown, then all the remaining vassals of the Arelat will probably achieve imperial immediacy and they won't be transferred to Valois-Burgundy.
- elevating on of their existing titles, this would be the 'easiest solution' for the Emperor, since it would minimize the consequences for other Imperial princes. However this new Crown will lack prestige and legitimacy and wasn't preferred by Philip nor Charles.

Finally have the kingdom of Lotharingia (northern Middle Francia) survive under descendants of Lothar II (independent) or Zwentibold; in case of the latter they will be a vassal kingdom of East Francia/HRE. The bonus here is surviving Carolingians, although Zwentibold was illegitimate. Maybe being 'under the umbrella' of one of the two interested in your territory might not be a bad thing for Lotharingia.
 
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By Rhineland, however, I don't mean just the German Rhineland, but also all the land east of the Meuse River in France. Basically, historical Lotharingia, from the Netherlands to the Swiss Border. And it has to be under a state that is recognizably the counterpart to the Netherlands of OTL.

(The usage of the term historical Lotharingia does not imply I want a medieval POD, but that would be fine.)

A better definition will be the Burgundian Kreis and the West Phalian Kries of the HRE. This roughly include the north part of Burgundy and a large part of the Prince Bishoprics of Munster, Coln and the counties/ducies Kleve-Mark-Berg
 

mats

Banned
Alternatively, it could be added to the United kingdom of the Netherlands at the congress of Vienna, to make sure it can check France.
 
A different Napoleonic Holland? Didn't Louis' Holland include Berg and the lands around there? Maybe if it had survived, it could have been set up as even larger the next time Napoleon redrew the borders?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Didn't the Burgundians historically try to get recognised as the Kings of Frisia?

They (Philip the Good and Charles the Bold) did see that as an option. IMHO that would also have been their best bet, especially if they do not like the idea of one of their (other*) titles (without a Royal past) being elevated. (*= the count of Holland, but also Gelre (county later duchy) did claim to be lord of Frisia/Friesland).
Ironically acquiring the Royal title of Burgundy might have been easier than Lotharingia for the Valois-Burgundy dukes, since the territory of the latter was mostly lost for the Empire. Still both are harder to obtain than Frisia.
 
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