All of James I/VI's children survive to adulthood

HRH Cecily

HRH Cecily

So Anna of Denmark had seven children, only three of whom reached adulthood. This isn't anywhere near being a timeline, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the possible effects if all seven survived.

The children are:
  1. Henry (19 February 1594)
  2. Elizabeth (19 August 1596)
  3. Margaret (24 December 1598)
  4. Charles (19 November 1600)
  5. Robert (18 January 1602)
  6. Mary (8 April 1605)
  7. Sophia (June 1607)
My initial thoughts are that maybe Elizabeth marries Gustavus Adolphus and her younger sister Margaret marries Frederick V, Elector Palatine, Elizabeth's OTL husband. Margaret and Robert's survival, I think has the most impact on historical events, particularly if Margaret marries Frederick. While Mary and Sophia have the potential to form alliances, I don't know how much difference each one specifically makes but I thought I'd include them here anyway. Maybe someone else has a better idea of what they could do. I also think Henry's either recovery from or avoidance of the illness that killed him will make a big difference. If Charles still takes the throne, Robert might be seen as a rallying point for a better alternative to his less charismatic brother. If Henry lives, Robert has a lot of freedom as a third son. I could see him going adventuring.
 

WillVictoria

If Charles still becomes king and the civil war is roughly as iotl could the roundheads try to replace Charles and kids with Robert?

If I remember correctly, there was rumblings of putting Henry, duke of Gloucester on the throne over his dad and 2 older brothers, but he rejected out of loyalty to his dad. Here instead of the King’s underage third son might they tap his younger brother who may be a) disillusioned with Charles and b) has kids of his own. If so will we see a tension between the Carolinan court in France and the Robertian one in London (ala otl’s later conflict between the the birthright claim of the jacobites vs the legal claim of the Hanoverians)
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Hmm I think Elizabeth to Gustavus would be fascinating but I’m not sure it would happen due to Anna’s animosity to Sweden and due to James traditional alliance with Denmark, but I’d it does, well then Elizabeth is much more secure and will likelt have a fair few kids with Gustavus.
If henry lives to succeed his dad, he could marry Catherine de Medici As was being touted at on e point,

if Charles ascends the throne then Robert will definitely be a focus for opposition, whether he himself opposes his brother remains to be seen, but he could also serve as a counter to Buckingham
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

WillVictoria said:
If Charles still becomes king and the civil war is roughly as iotl could the roundheads try to replace Charles and kids with Robert?

If I remember correctly, there was rumblings of putting Henry, duke of Gloucester on the throne over his dad and 2 older brothers, but he rejected out of loyalty to his dad. Here instead of the King’s underage third son might they tap his younger brother who may be a) disillusioned with Charles and b) has kids of his own. If so will we see a tension between the Carolinan court in France and the Robertian one in London (ala otl’s later conflict between the the birthright claim of the jacobites vs the legal claim of the Hanoverians)
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Ooo I could see this happening...especially if robert marries a staunch protestant and is sympathetic to puritans, in contrast to charles with his popish wife and beloved bishops...
 

VVD0D95

Banned
WillVictoria said:
If Charles still becomes king and the civil war is roughly as iotl could the roundheads try to replace Charles and kids with Robert?

If I remember correctly, there was rumblings of putting Henry, duke of Gloucester on the throne over his dad and 2 older brothers, but he rejected out of loyalty to his dad. Here instead of the King’s underage third son might they tap his younger brother who may be a) disillusioned with Charles and b) has kids of his own. If so will we see a tension between the Carolinan court in France and the Robertian one in London (ala otl’s later conflict between the the birthright claim of the jacobites vs the legal claim of the Hanoverians)
Click to expand...
Possible though would Robert accept? As if he’s being made king by what are essentially traitors what’s ro say they won’t betray him if given the chance?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

VVD0D95 said:
Hmm I think Elizabeth to Gustavus would be fascinating but I’m not sure it would happen due to Anna’s animosity to Sweden and due to James traditional alliance with Denmark, but I’d it does, well then Elizabeth is much more secure and will likelt have a fair few kids with Gustavus.
If henry lives to succeed his dad, he could marry Catherine de Medici As was being touted at on e point,

if Charles ascends the throne then Robert will definitely be a focus for opposition, whether he himself opposes his brother remains to be seen, but he could also serve as a counter to Buckingham
Click to expand...
Hmm...Elizabeth go to France or Spain ITTL? It would be interesting to see her as a second wife for Philip III.
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

VVD0D95 said:
Possible though would Robert accept? As if he’s being made king by what are essentially traitors what’s ro say they won’t betray him if given the chance?
Click to expand...
There's always the chance that Robert could exercise a moderating influence on his brother and possibly convince him to reach a compromise with the parliamentarians.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
curlyhairedhippie said:
Hmm...Elizabeth go to France or Spain ITTL? It would be interesting to see her as a second wife for Philip III.
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Hmm this would be interesting perhaps James decided to wed henrh to a Protestant in this instance rhen?


curlyhairedhippie said:
There's always the chance that Robert could exercise a moderating influence on his brother and possibly convince him to reach a compromise with the parliamentarians.
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land that is also possible and would be interesting to see
 

Kellan Sullivan

curlyhairedhippie said:
Hmm...Elizabeth go to France or Spain ITTL? It would be interesting to see her as a second wife for Philip III.
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https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/wi-elizabeth-stuart-queen-of-bohemia.450825/

Henri IV was also interested in her as a possible wife for Louis XIII IIRC, not to mention there was talk of her being married to the duke of Brunswick-something or other and the duke of Savoy (Victor Amadeus I, when he was heir presumptive to the Spanish throne).

curlyhairedhippie said:
There's always the chance that Robert could exercise a moderating influence on his brother and possibly convince him to reach a compromise with the parliamentarians.
Click to expand...

Why? Why would Robert have a personality so far different to Charles did? If anything , Chuck and Bob are likely to be closer (given the two year age gap versus the six-years between Charles and Henry. Chuck and Bob could end up like Chuck's boys more than Edward IV and Clarence.
 

isabella

I think who with three boys nobody would care where James married his daughters... so at least Elizabeth will make a prominent Catholic match and max two of her sisters will marry protestants...
At least one of the boys also will marry Catholic, either Henry of Charles and I can see a Dutch (or French Protestant) match for Robert if they have any princess available
 

VVD0D95

Banned
isabella said:
I think who with three boys nobody would care where James married his daughters... so at least Elizabeth will make a prominent Catholic match and max two of her sisters will marry protestants...
At least one of the boys also will marry Catholic, either Henry of Charles and I can see a Dutch (or French Protestant) match for Robert if they have any princess available
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Wasn’t James whole stick to be a mediator hence the marriage for a Protestant for his eldest daughter and marriage to a catholic for his son. If liz marries catholic, Henry’s going to be marrying Protestant noL
 

funnyhat

Henry as king instead of Charles could really butterfly things. Henry was known to have very strong Protestant views and would likely want the Church of England to become more like the Church of Scotland, while Charles IOTL tried to push the church into more of an Anglo-Catholic direction, which fueled the tension with the parliament and with Scotland.
 

isabella

VVD0D95 said:
Wasn’t James whole stick to be a mediator hence the marriage for a Protestant for his eldest daughter and marriage to a catholic for his son. If liz marries catholic, Henry’s going to be marrying Protestant noL
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Pretty unlikely with so many kids alive...
 

WillVictoria

Maybe something like this? Let me know if any of the marriages seem off. We have 3 protestant marriages (for Henry Frederick, Mary, and Robert) and 4 Catholic marriages (for Elizabeth, Margaret, Charles, and Sophia).

James VI & I (1566 - 1625) m. Anne of Denmark (1574 - 1619)
  1. Henry IX Frederick (1594 - 1642) m. Elisabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate (1597 - 1660)
    1. James (1617 -1707)
    2. Louise (1621 - 1699)
    3. Frederick, Duke of Gloucester (1623 - 1713)
    4. Henry, Duke of Cambridge (1625 - 1660)
    5. William, Duke of Kendal (1626 - 1630)
    6. Anne (1629 - 1645)
    7. Edward, Duke of Kendal (1633 - 1635)
  2. Elizabeth (1596 - 1662) m. Louis XIII (1601 - 1643)
    1. Louis (1619 - 1709)
    2. Marie (1621 - 1667)
    3. Anne (1622 - 1653)
    4. Jacques, Duke of Orleans (1624 - 1644)
    5. Henri, Duke of Anjou (1628 - 1632)
    6. Francois, Duke of Berry (1629 - 1635)
    7. Charles, Duke of Anjou (1633 - 1701)
  3. Margaret (1598 - 1634) m. Victor Amadeus, Duke of Savoy (1587 - 1637)
    1. Stillborn Son (1621)
    2. Louise Margaret (1623 - 1629)
    3. Louis Amadeus (1625 - 1677)
    4. Margaret Yolande (1628 - 1709)
    5. Francis Hyacinth (1631 - 1633)
    6. Catherine Anne (1634 - 1689)
  4. Charles, Duke of York (1600 - 1658) m. Maria Gonzaga (1609 - 1660)
    1. Mary of York (1628 - 1715)
    2. Anne of York (1630 - 1645)
    3. Margaret of York (1633 - 1637)
    4. Eleanor of York (1633 - 1635)
    5. Charles of York (1637 - 1654)
    6. Elizabeth of York (1639 - 1658)
    7. Catherine of York (1641 - 1705)
    8. Sophia of York (1645 - 1646)
    9. Stillborn Son (1646)
  5. Robert, Duke of Kintyre (1602 - 1664) m. Marie de La Tour d' Auvergne (1601 - 1665)
    1. Robert of Kintyre (1624 - 1644)
    2. Mary of Kintyre (1627 - 1651)
    3. Henry of Kintyre (1628 - 1640)
    4. Anne of Kintyre (1631 - 1658)
    5. Elizabeth of Kintyre (1634 -1663)
    6. James of Kintyre (1636 - 1651)
    7. William of Kintyre (1638 - 1652)
  6. Mary (1605 - 1639) m. Christian, Prince Elect of Denmark (1603 - 1647)
    1. Anne Catherine (1624 -1625)
    2. Frederick (1627 - 1664)
    3. Mary (1630 - 1693)
    4. Sophie (1631 - 1632)
    5. Margaret (1634 - 1671)
    6. Elizabeth (1636 - 1667)
    7. Christiana (1639 - 1682)
  7. Sophia (1606 - 1671) m. Ferdinando de Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (1610 -1670)
    1. Cosimo (1633 -1679)
    2. Francesco Maria (1634 - 1641)
    3. Stillborn daughter (1636)
    4. Maria Maddalena (1639 - 1722)
    5. Anna (1641 - 1655)
    6. Sophia (1643 - 1647)
 

Kellan Sullivan

WillVictoria said:
Maybe something like this? Let me know if any of the marriages seem off. We have 3 protestant marriages (for Henry Frederick, Mary, and Robert) and 4 Catholic marriages (for Elizabeth, Margaret, Charles, and Sophia).

James VI & I (1566 - 1625) m. Anne of Denmark (1574 - 1619)
  1. Henry IX Frederick (1594 - 1642) m. Elisabeth Charlotte of the Palatinate (1597 - 1660)
    1. James (1617 -1707)
    2. Louise (1621 - 1699)
    3. Frederick, Duke of Gloucester (1623 - 1713)
    4. Henry, Duke of Cambridge (1625 - 1660)
    5. William, Duke of Kendal (1626 - 1630)
    6. Anne (1629 - 1645)
    7. Edward, Duke of Kendal (1633 - 1635)
  2. Elizabeth (1596 - 1662) m. Louis XIII (1601 - 1643)
    1. Louis (1619 - 1709)
    2. Marie (1621 - 1667)
    3. Anne (1622 - 1653)
    4. Jacques, Duke of Orleans (1624 - 1644)
    5. Henri, Duke of Anjou (1628 - 1632)
    6. Francois, Duke of Berry (1629 - 1635)
    7. Charles, Duke of Anjou (1633 - 1701)
  3. Margaret (1598 - 1634) m. Victor Amadeus, Duke of Savoy (1587 - 1637)
    1. Stillborn Son (1621)
    2. Louise Margaret (1623 - 1629)
    3. Louis Amadeus (1625 - 1677)
    4. Margaret Yolande (1628 - 1709)
    5. Francis Hyacinth (1631 - 1633)
    6. Catherine Anne (1634 - 1689)
  4. Charles, Duke of York (1600 - 1658) m. Maria Gonzaga (1609 - 1660)
    1. Mary of York (1628 - 1715)
    2. Anne of York (1630 - 1645)
    3. Margaret of York (1633 - 1637)
    4. Eleanor of York (1633 - 1635)
    5. Charles of York (1637 - 1654)
    6. Elizabeth of York (1639 - 1658)
    7. Catherine of York (1641 - 1705)
    8. Sophia of York (1645 - 1646)
    9. Stillborn Son (1646)
  5. Robert, Duke of Kintyre (1602 - 1664) m. Marie de La Tour d' Auvergne (1601 - 1665)
    1. Robert of Kintyre (1624 - 1644)
    2. Mary of Kintyre (1627 - 1651)
    3. Henry of Kintyre (1628 - 1640)
    4. Anne of Kintyre (1631 - 1658)
    5. Elizabeth of Kintyre (1634 -1663)
    6. James of Kintyre (1636 - 1651)
    7. William of Kintyre (1638 - 1652)
  6. Mary (1605 - 1639) m. Christian, Prince Elect of Denmark (1603 - 1647)
    1. Anne Catherine (1624 -1625)
    2. Frederick (1627 - 1664)
    3. Mary (1630 - 1693)
    4. Sophie (1631 - 1632)
    5. Margaret (1634 - 1671)
    6. Elizabeth (1636 - 1667)
    7. Christiana (1639 - 1682)
  7. Sophia (1606 - 1671) m. Ferdinando de Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany (1610 -1670)
    1. Cosimo (1633 -1679)
    2. Francesco Maria (1634 - 1641)
    3. Stillborn daughter (1636)
    4. Maria Maddalena (1639 - 1722)
    5. Anna (1641 - 1655)
    6. Sophia (1643 - 1647)
Click to expand...

No offense, but only way I see a French match going through is if Henri IV survives (and OTL, Henri IV went with Liz because Liz was the only daughter of James VI, I suspect that if Jimbo has a younger daughter surviving, Henri will go with Margaret or Mary). Not to mention that I suspect Elisabeth de France will be offered for Henry Frederick, but otherwise, you've removed all of Henri IV's daughters' OTL matches (except one to Spain) when there was a shortage of crown princes to make up the differences (for Christine or Henriette Marie).
 

isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
No offense, but only way I see a French match going through is if Henri IV survives (and OTL, Henri IV went with Liz because Liz was the only daughter of James VI, I suspect that if Jimbo has a younger daughter surviving, Henri will go with Margaret or Mary). Not to mention that I suspect Elisabeth de France will be offered for Henry Frederick, but otherwise, you've removed all of Henri IV's daughters' OTL matches (except one to Spain) when there was a shortage of crown princes to make up the differences (for Christine or Henriette Marie).
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Yes, the Savoy match is pretty unlikely (as Victor Amadeus will marry either Elisabeth or Christine of France) and if Henry IV of France survived, then Henry Frederick will marry either Elisabeth of France or Anne of Austria (both available as the double French/Spanish match will NOT happen here)
 

VVD0D95

Banned
isabella said:
Yes, the Savoy match is pretty unlikely (as Victor Amadeus will marry either Elisabeth or Christine of France) and if Henry IV of France survived, then Henry Frederick will marry either Elisabeth of France or Anne of Austria (both available as the double French/Spanish match will NOT happen here)
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Would religion not be an issue for Anne?
 

WillVictoria

Kellan Sullivan said:
No offense, but only way I see a French match going through is if Henri IV survives (and OTL, Henri IV went with Liz because Liz was the only daughter of James VI, I suspect that if Jimbo has a younger daughter surviving, Henri will go with Margaret or Mary). Not to mention that I suspect Elisabeth de France will be offered for Henry Frederick, but otherwise, you've removed all of Henri IV's daughters' OTL matches (except one to Spain) when there was a shortage of crown princes to make up the differences (for Christine or Henriette Marie).
Click to expand...
isabella said:
Yes, the Savoy match is pretty unlikely (as Victor Amadeus will marry either Elisabeth or Christine of France) and if Henry IV of France survived, then Henry Frederick will marry either Elisabeth of France or Anne of Austria (both available as the double French/Spanish match will NOT happen here)
Click to expand...

Ok that makes sense. Does this look better? I kept Charles as marrying Maria Gonzaga and Robert with Mare de La Tour'Auvergne, but I'm not sure if those matches make sense. I moved Anne of Austria to Henry Frederick and Louis XIII to Margaret (Elisabeth of France will keep her Spanish groom). Also gave Elizabeth her OTL husband and Sophia the Prince of Orange.

James VI & I (1566 - 1625) m. Anne of Denmark (1574 - 1619)
  1. Henry IX Frederick (1594 - 1642) m. Anne of Austria (1601 - 1666)
    1. James (1619 - 1625)
    2. Henry (1623 -1661)
    3. Anne (1626 - 1677)
    4. Philip, Duke of Gloucester (1628 - 1681)
  2. Elizabeth (1596 - 1662) m. Frederick, Elector Palatinate (1596 - 1632)
    1. Frederick Henry (1614 - 1632)
    2. Elisabeth (1615 - 1628)
    3. Louise (1618 - 1671)
    4. Charles Louis (1619 - 1701)
    5. Anne (1622 - 1678)
    6. Charlotte (1624 - 1627)
    7. Rupert (1624 -1678)
    8. Sophia (1627 -1663)
    9. Maurice (1630 - 1719)
  3. Margaret (1598 - 1634) m. Louis XIII (1601 - 1643)
    1. Marie (1619 - 1676)
    2. Anne (1620 - 1664)
    3. Marguerite (1623 - 1700)
    4. Louise (1626 - 1703)
    5. Louis (1629 - 1664)
  4. Charles, Duke of York (1600 - 1658) m. Maria Gonzaga (1609 - 1660)
    1. Mary of York (1628 - 1715)
    2. Anne of York (1630 - 1645)
    3. Margaret of York (1633 - 1637)
    4. Eleanor of York (1633 - 1635)
    5. Charles of York (1637 - 1654)
    6. Elizabeth of York (1639 - 1658)
    7. Catherine of York (1641 - 1705)
    8. Sophia of York (1645 - 1646)
    9. Stillborn Son (1646)
  5. Robert, Duke of Kintyre (1602 - 1664) m. Marie de La Tour d' Auvergne (1601 - 1665)
    1. Robert of Kintyre (1624 - 1644)
    2. Mary of Kintyre (1627 - 1651)
    3. Henry of Kintyre (1628 - 1640)
    4. Anne of Kintyre (1631 - 1658)
    5. Elizabeth of Kintyre (1634 -1663)
    6. James of Kintyre (1636 - 1651)
    7. William of Kintyre (1638 - 1652)
  6. Mary (1605 - 1639) m. Christian, Prince Elect of Denmark (1603 - 1647)
    1. Anne Catherine (1624 -1625)
    2. Frederick (1627 - 1664)
    3. Mary (1630 - 1693)
    4. Sophie (1631 - 1632)
    5. Margaret (1634 - 1671)
    6. Elizabeth (1636 - 1667)
    7. Christiana (1639 - 1682)
  7. Sophia (1606 - 1671) m. Frederick Henry, Prince of Orange (1584 - 1647)
    1. William (1626 - 1709)
    2. Henry Frederick (1628 - 1715)
    3. James (1630 - 1639)
    4. Louise Henriette (1634 -1684)
    5. Frederick Louis (1639 - 1667)
    6. Henriette Sophia (1640 -1668)
    7. Charles (1642 - 1723)
    8. Stillborn son (1645)
 
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