All Mexico Movement

Raymann

Banned
The British just signed a treaty with the US, and they weren't that eager for war. As for the French, Bonaparte had better things to do like plan his coup and challenge Russia in the Middle East.
 
Mexico will probably become Americanized by 1900 or so, after all California and Texas were Americanized by 1870. When the American Civil War brakes out (supposing it does happen on schedule) the Mexicans will probably be territories and mostly support the Union in order to get statehood. As a result the Civil War with a large Mexican army will probably end a year or two earlier. Of course this will not mean all of Mexico will be pro-Union. Many Mexicans especially the landowning class that controls the peonage system will support the Confederates. Quite possibly you might see a Mexican Confederate cabinet member. On the third side you'll see a strong Mexican secessionist/independence movement although no doubt even if they succeed get crushed after the Civil War. Once the Civil War ends there will be strong pressure for statehood. I suppose statehood will happen slowly but the process should be complete by 1900 or so. The Mexican states will probably support the Democrats in the 1890s and the 1900s or possibly the Populists as a result of the free silver issue: Mexico is full of silver mines. If the Mexicans are strongly Populist the latter party may become a major party or throw the election to the House. As for language English will be taught and most of the Mexican states will be English speaking three quarters of a century after it's conquest. Spanish will survive of course but will be a minority language but on the other hand American English will be heavily Spanish-influenced widening the divide between American and British English. Other then Baja, Sonora, Chiahuahua, and Coahuila most of Mexico will remain "Spanish/Hispanic". Mexico City especially will become the Second City of the United States and the Spanish cultural capital. Veracruz will probably be more white although it will still have a Hispanic majority. With Mexico far more prosperous up until 1980 or so birth rates will be higher and perhaps to today if Mexicans ally enough to form a social conservative coalition. Certainly abortion will not be legal and birth control will be heavily restricted.
 
Mexico will probably become Americanized by 1900 or so, after all California and Texas were Americanized by 1870. When the American Civil War brakes out (supposing it does happen on schedule) the Mexicans will probably be territories and mostly support the Union in order to get statehood. As a result the Civil War with a large Mexican army will probably end a year or two earlier. Of course this will not mean all of Mexico will be pro-Union. Many Mexicans especially the landowning class that controls the peonage system will support the Confederates. Quite possibly you might see a Mexican Confederate cabinet member. On the third side you'll see a strong Mexican secessionist/independence movement although no doubt even if they succeed get crushed after the Civil War. Once the Civil War ends there will be strong pressure for statehood. I suppose statehood will happen slowly but the process should be complete by 1900 or so. The Mexican states will probably support the Democrats in the 1890s and the 1900s or possibly the Populists as a result of the free silver issue: Mexico is full of silver mines. If the Mexicans are strongly Populist the latter party may become a major party or throw the election to the House. As for language English will be taught and most of the Mexican states will be English speaking three quarters of a century after it's conquest. Spanish will survive of course but will be a minority language but on the other hand American English will be heavily Spanish-influenced widening the divide between American and British English. Other then Baja, Sonora, Chiahuahua, and Coahuila most of Mexico will remain "Spanish/Hispanic". Mexico City especially will become the Second City of the United States and the Spanish cultural capital. Veracruz will probably be more white although it will still have a Hispanic majority. With Mexico far more prosperous up until 1980 or so birth rates will be higher and perhaps to today if Mexicans ally enough to form a social conservative coalition. Certainly abortion will not be legal and birth control will be heavily restricted.

I agree with the whole Civil War scenario part. BUt not with that rapid Americanization. The only reason California and Texas were Americanized so rapidly was because Texas was already almost inhabited by American immigrants for quite a few years earlier and they were the majority by far by the time they Texas was annexed. In the case California it was empty, except for a few areas in the South particularly San Diego which was a fairly sized port.
But still once the area was annexed by the US many Mexiucans migrated back to Mexico emptying the territry even ffurther.
 
I'd just like to say we won't have as much border problems as we do now. With a much smaller southern border, and the means to actually police it (unlike the Mexicans and their southern border), the US won't have to worry as much about immigration. Although Mexican ports instead of Miami will be major drug routes.

I wonder how this will effect the Cold War. Soviet spies supporting radical Mexican independence movements?
 
Soviet spies supporting radical Mexican independence movements?

This seems a bit extreme to me. After 150 years as part of the nation, and (probably) decent wealth, I'm sure most will be content. Independence movements will be small and mostly scoffed it. It wouldn't be that much more impressive than a modern day Texan independence movement.
 
Mexico will probably become Americanized by 1900 or so, after all California and Texas were Americanized by 1870. When the American Civil War brakes out (supposing it does happen on schedule) the Mexicans will probably be territories and mostly support the Union in order to get statehood. As a result the Civil War with a large Mexican army will probably end a year or two earlier. Of course this will not mean all of Mexico will be pro-Union. Many Mexicans especially the landowning class that controls the peonage system will support the Confederates. Quite possibly you might see a Mexican Confederate cabinet member. On the third side you'll see a strong Mexican secessionist/independence movement although no doubt even if they succeed get crushed after the Civil War. Once the Civil War ends there will be strong pressure for statehood. I suppose statehood will happen slowly but the process should be complete by 1900 or so. The Mexican states will probably support the Democrats in the 1890s and the 1900s or possibly the Populists as a result of the free silver issue: Mexico is full of silver mines. If the Mexicans are strongly Populist the latter party may become a major party or throw the election to the House. As for language English will be taught and most of the Mexican states will be English speaking three quarters of a century after it's conquest. Spanish will survive of course but will be a minority language but on the other hand American English will be heavily Spanish-influenced widening the divide between American and British English. Other then Baja, Sonora, Chiahuahua, and Coahuila most of Mexico will remain "Spanish/Hispanic". Mexico City especially will become the Second City of the United States and the Spanish cultural capital. Veracruz will probably be more white although it will still have a Hispanic majority. With Mexico far more prosperous up until 1980 or so birth rates will be higher and perhaps to today if Mexicans ally enough to form a social conservative coalition. Certainly abortion will not be legal and birth control will be heavily restricted.

I actually agree with most of what you say, except for what's bolded. A few things I could add to your arguments: The Populists began and were strongest in Texas and both TX and New Mexico had many Mexican Populist groups. Also Sonora IOTL is the most Americanized of all Mexican states.

A lot depends on how you measure it but IOTL Texas was most certainly not Americanized by 1870 or it would never have joined the Confederate insurgency.

Taking just a few examples:

Both Spanish and German were widely spoken as first languages, German up til the anti German hysteria of WWI, Spanish up to the present day.

Most Mexicans in Texas did not consider themselves Americans until at least the 1920s. In my grandpa's time it was still common for Mexicans and Indians to refer to whites alone as "Americans."

There were failed uprisings by Mexicans in Texas in the 1870s and 1910s.

What I'd expect in TTL is that the US would become not only far more Mexicanized but also Indianized. At the time of Mexico's independence only 1/3 of the population spoke Spanish as a first language. MX's govt had a far harsher and more successful assimilation policy than colonial Spain.

It's interesting to imagine Mexican and Indian migrants taking the place of Eastern and Southern European immigrants in the NE during industrializing. Instead of Little Italies, imagine Little Mayantowns, or Zapotec neighborhoods. A good example of how that wored IOTL is the town of Guadalupe Arizona, with many Yaqui neighborhoods. Or the Mohawk neighborhood of NYC.
 
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I actually agree with most of what you say, except for what's bolded. A few things I could add to your arguments: The Populists began and were strongest in Texas and both TX and New Mexico had many Mexican Populist groups. Also Sonora IOTL is the most Americanized of all Mexican states.

A lot depends on how you measure it but IOTL Texas was most certainly not Americanized by 1870 or it would never have joined the Confederate insurgency.

Taking just a few examples:

Both Spanish and German were widely spoken as first languages, German up til the anti German hysteria of WWI, Spanish up to the present day.

Most Mexicans in Texas did not consider themselves Americans until at least the 1920s. In my grandpa's time it was still common for Mexicans and Indians to refer to whites alone as "Americans."

There were failed uprisings by Mexicans in Texas in the 1870s and 1910s.

Thank you. The last part's really interesting, I'd like to learn more please.
 
What I'd expect in TTL is that the US would become not only far more Mexicanized but also Indianized. At the time of Mexico's independence only 1/3 of the population spoke Spanish as a first language. MX's govt had a far harsher and more successful assimilation policy than colonial Spain.


If only 1/3 of the Mexican population use Spanish as their first language, assuming by 1848 it is up to about 1/2, that actually makes it much easier deposit English into Mexico as the primary language, at least much more so than if Spanish was around 90 % 1st tongue rates.
 
If only 1/3 of the Mexican population use Spanish as their first language, assuming by 1848 it is up to about 1/2, that actually makes it much easier deposit English into Mexico as the primary language, at least much more so than if Spanish was around 90 % 1st tongue rates.

I would say harder, since a good deal of indigenous languages (such the dialects of Nahuatl) not only lack sounds which are found in English, but also have sounds which are not found in English at all (such as the sound best represented by Klingon's "tlh" [t͡ɬ]).
 
There is also the question if Standard US Indian policy will apply in an Indian Majority country.

While the Spanish speaking urban Indians might be more or less left alone, I'm not quite sure how things go with the non Spanish speaking ones.

Do we see an apartheid with the Urban and white Mexicans being defined "Mexicans" and a large rural population defined as "Indians" with all the policies that comes with at the time.
 
There is also the question if Standard US Indian policy will apply in an Indian Majority country.

While the Spanish speaking urban Indians might be more or less left alone, I'm not quite sure how things go with the non Spanish speaking ones.

Do we see an apartheid with the Urban and white Mexicans being defined "Mexicans" and a large rural population defined as "Indians" with all the policies that comes with at the time.

I think apartheid, or rather segregation, is a given. But it can't last long if Mexico is going to stay part of the US.
Though white (or mostly white so Mestizo and Castizo as well) spanish speaking Mexicans will be given full citizenship. Many will suffer from segregation. But in truth, for many or most, the situation will not be much different than what it was with Spain or independent Mexico. So as long as there is stability, indifference will be abundant. Though uprisings will still exist here and there.

But yes the US would be much more Mexicanized and Indianized, some will move north, just like the african americans did IOTL. So little mayatowns and such will appear all over the place.

By the early 1900s most "independence" movements would be shunned. Even if segregation is still a reality.

The biggest problem would be once the civil right movement comes along which will probably happen much sooner than in OTL.
 
Ind,

Georgia, South Carolina, etc. were part of the American Revolution and they joined "the Confederate insurgency."

So willingness to support the Confederacy is not a sign of being insufficiently Americanized.
 
Mexico's govt, and colonial Spain's, had some pretty different ideas what constituted an Indian than the US. It wasn't blood descent. Even supposed people of all Euro descent usually had an Indian in the family tree, and forged birth and baptismal certificates were very common.

Mexico's govt often listed one as Indian based on whether you lived in an Indian village, whether you wore traditional Indian clothing, whether you spoke Spanish or not, etc.

I imagine the US govt will initially adopt some mix of the two standards to define who is Indian or not. If it used just blood quantum, almost all of the Mexican urban population would qualify.

It'll also be interesting to see the treaty mechanism come into play with Mexico's Indians and the creation of reservations. There are extremely few Indian reservations in Mexico today, just the Yaqui and a few other small tribal grants during the time of Lazaro Cardenas in the 1930s.

Imagine the Yucatan with a number of reservations (or even one big one the size of the Navajo rez) done to stave off the War of the Castas. (I doubt the US would recognize the Republic of Yucatan's claim of independence, or elites may join the US much like they rejoined Mexico IOTL).

Imagine how different the Apache Wars would be without Apache warriors able to hide out across the border. Perhaps Apache reservations in Mexico. And some of the other cross border tribes like the O'odham and Maricopa have different, perhaps larger rezzes.
 
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Imagine the Yucatan with a number of reservations (or even one big one the size of the Navajo rez) done to stave off the War of the Castas. (I doubt the US would recognize the Republic of Yucatan's claim of independence, or elites may join the US much like they rejoined Mexico IOTL).
I can't imagine the Mayans not resisting the Americans as they did the Mexicans after Yucatan rejoined them, and if the US tries to put them on reservations it can only get worse. Also, annexation by the slave-holding USA might increase Mayan paranoia and drive them to war even further. OTL a bunch of US Marines did actually end up fighting the Mayan rebels, and by all accounts they failed spectacularly. The only good thing anyone could say about the Marines' performance was that they were brave. Beyond that, they were just plain dumb. The insurgencies in the Yucatan would be a major, major problem. Even OTL they were the main reason we did not take Yucatan up on its offer to annex them.

If all the other Mexican insurgents were half as effective as the Mayans, I cannot imagine Mexico staying as US Territory into the 20th Century.
 
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