All in western front 1914

Lets say the Germans use the 3 active corps of the 8th army (in East Prussia OTL August 1914) on the western front instead.

This leaves only the reserve corps, cavalry, fortress troops etc. in east prussia, the Germans are prepared to retreat to the Vistula fortress line (also holding the Koningsburg fortress area too).

Could the extra 3 corps be enough to win in the west in 1914 (assume you have to start transferring some back east by the end of September)?????
 

Deleted member 1487

Lets say the Germans use the 3 active corps of the 8th army (in East Prussia OTL August 1914) on the western front instead.

This leaves only the reserve corps, cavalry, fortress troops etc. in east prussia, the Germans are prepared to retreat to the Vistula fortress line (also holding the Koningsburg fortress area too).

Could the extra 3 corps be enough to win in the west in 1914 (assume you have to start transferring some back east by the end of September)?????

How about they don't send their two corps East in August when Prittwitz panics and threatens to do just that? Those two corps would probably be enough to plug the gaps in the line just enough to prevent trouble at the Marne and probably would burst the French line up around the French 9th army, as they were on the verge of collapse OTL. When that happens the French would have to change plans very quickly, send in reserves, and decisively weaken their flanking forces enough to let the Germans pull back only to the Marne itself. That way they can regroup and try again to win much closer to Paris in a matter of weeks, rather than pulling back to the Aisne and trying for the Race to the Sea. Its kinda the premise of my Marne without Moltke.
 
The Marne without Moltke is one of my favorite ATLs! (any of the 1914 ATLs can cause so much divergence from OTL).

But how about with the 3 corps from the 8th army, plus the 2 corps not withdrawn gives you 5 corps!, a whole extra army basically to cover Paris and all the way the sea from the beginning of September, and the German 1st army contines to just drive south.

With the German prepared to give up East Prussia, the Austrians are just instructed to stay behind the San-Dniester river lines and not do anything stupid, so maybe it will be October before the pressure gets too serious where you have to do wholesale transfers to the east.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Marne without Moltke is one of my favorite ATLs! (any of the 1914 ATLs can cause so much divergence from OTL).

But how about with the 3 corps from the 8th army, plus the 2 corps not withdrawn gives you 5 corps!, a whole extra army basically to cover Paris and all the way the sea from the beginning of September, and the German 1st army contines to just drive south.

With the German prepared to give up East Prussia, the Austrians are just instructed to stay behind the San-Dniester river lines and not do anything stupid, so maybe it will be October before the pressure gets too serious where you have to do wholesale transfers to the east.

Politically that is very rough, because all of the Prussian generals have ancestral homes in the areas ceded to the Russians. Also the Russians behaved pretty badly in the areas they grabbed OTL in Prussia and Galicia, so there is the fear there of rape, pillage, murder, and hostage taking, which all happened OTL. Though militarily it would be viable and indeed was suggested by Schlieffen, it wasn't a viable option politically or morally for the Kaiser and his generals.
 
The German offensive was doomed no matter what happened for logistical and strategic reasons. It doesn't make any difference if there's more troops except that the logistical running out of steam may happen earlier and thus with a more shallow penetration into France.
 

Deleted member 1487

The German offensive was doomed no matter what happened for logistical and strategic reasons. It doesn't make any difference if there's more troops except that the logistical running out of steam may happen earlier and thus with a more shallow penetration into France.

Define doomed. Completing Schlieffen's goal of encircling Paris and the French army? Sure, it was impossible in 1914. But destroying large parts of the French army in combat and encircling important fortresses like Verdun, and capturing critical provinces in France that contain most of France's iron and coal? That was very doable and nearly fully happened as Moltke planned but for a lack of forces at the Marne. Moltke was looking for a buffer with France and Britain in the West, so that Germany could beat back Russia and cripple France economically so that a favorable peace would be worked out in the aftermath of smashing the Entente offensives; of course Moltke got greedy and went for the big win when his forces were not capable of it.
 
Define doomed. Completing Schlieffen's goal of encircling Paris and the French army? Sure, it was impossible in 1914. But destroying large parts of the French army in combat and encircling important fortresses like Verdun, and capturing critical provinces in France that contain most of France's iron and coal? That was very doable and nearly fully happened as Moltke planned but for a lack of forces at the Marne. Moltke was looking for a buffer with France and Britain in the West, so that Germany could beat back Russia and cripple France economically so that a favorable peace would be worked out in the aftermath of smashing the Entente offensives; of course Moltke got greedy and went for the big win when his forces were not capable of it.

Except that Schlieffen's plan was if anything less ambitious than von Moltke II's. Schlieffen was aiming for only a single envelopment, von Moltke II was going for a double envelopment. The entire plan was based on a bad premise involving non-existent armies and robots, instead of men, as well as neglecting the logistics factor.
 

Deleted member 1487

Except that Schlieffen's plan was if anything less ambitious than von Moltke II's. Schlieffen was aiming for only a single envelopment, von Moltke II was going for a double envelopment. The entire plan was based on a bad premise involving non-existent armies and robots, instead of men, as well as neglecting the logistics factor.

The double envelopment wasn't a prewar plan, that was Moltke getting greedy, changing the plan, and hoping for his Super Caenne.
Schlieffen's plan, if you can really call it that, was much more ambitious than what Moltke formed the actual war plan into. Moltke wanted to hold Alsace-Lorraine and take Briey-Longwy for its iron and then launch the center-right hook into Belgium-Luxembourg to catch the French army in the flank, either cripple it enough to turn east or grab enough important ground to hold out until he could bring his men back West and deal a knock out blow.
 
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