All five Revenge class built as Renown BCs

Convert them to training ships, but store the turrets, armour ect. If for some reason you need extra bbs quickly just replace what was removed. If at all possible modernise the reactivated the ships at the same time. Would come in very handy if an active bb is lost.

I've just remembered that there was a plan to convert the Agincourt into a base ship for the MNBDO. However, I can't remember if that plan came to nought for the lack of money or it had to be scrapped under the WNT.
 
Not Hood, Furious. Half sister to Courageous and Glorious but even more useless. She was supposed to be armed with 2 18.1 inch guns rather than 4 15 inch guns. As her sisters risked serious damage with every volley you can imagine what would have happened to Furious.
 
Not Hood, Furious. Half sister to Courageous and Glorious but even more useless. She was supposed to be armed with 2 18.1 inch guns rather than 4 15 inch guns. As her sisters risked serious damage with every volley you can imagine what would have happened to Furious.

The other issue was that only having 2 or 4 guns made it very difficult to 'range in' on a target or certainly more difficult than having 6 or 8 (or more)
 
Have fisher convert his speed is armor to speed+armor is a world beater idea for a timeline if ur a bb fanatic.... When he realizes that every future bb would have bc speed more or less with oil fired ships and KABOOM A REASON TO CONVERT FUTURE SHIPS TO OIL FIRED CAUSE OF THE SAME TONNAGE PRODUCES LIKE 5 EXTRA KNOTS COMPARED TO COAL. This is before WNT SO SIZES ARENT A LIMIT YET!!!!!
And then you could see improved QE classes instead of revenges and admirals instead of renowns very logically. 15inch was probably the best capital ship gun in ww1 and was completly acceptable in ww2 . G3/N3 concepts if you wanna build bigger gun ships in 20-s for example and hell even 2 carriers built in the twenties to learn lessons and stuff and then build loads in the 30-s when ur sure about the design and realize dive bombing i guess. And i meant if you kinda overbuilt the navy during ww1 then get the aussies/canada to maintain one very good ship each for example on the dominions dime .

Hell you could go oil hunting (saudi contract was signed 1930-s with usa for example) to feed ur future fleet and as already mentioned nigeria had easy to access oil once you found it and it has been a british colony for awhile and could be kept forever if the will was there to honest . And america can provide alot of oil aswell , hell when was trinidad oil exploited? Maybe develop sea drilling for some reason and discover the north sea oil earlier for example.You also have burma oil and borneo oil wich really wasnt developed yet to be honest. You could buy from the dutch during wartime if leverage and stuff was applied properly pretty easily for example(idk about east indies oil production especially during/before ww1).
 
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Hell you could go oil hunting (saudi contract was signed 1930-s with usa for example) to feed ur future fleet and as already mentioned nigeria had easy to access oil once you found it and it has been a british colony for awhile and could be kept forever if the will was there to honest . And america can provide alot of oil aswell , hell when was trinidad oil exploited? Maybe develop sea drilling for some reason and discover the north sea oil earlier for example.You also have burma oil and borneo oil wich really wasnt developed yet to be honest. You could buy from the dutch during wartime if leverage and stuff was applied properly pretty easily for example(idk about east indies oil production especially during/before ww1).

Relying on US oil is not considered a good idea....as it turned out the US never was on the opposition but it had to be considered.

Saudi Arabia oil in the 1910's...........mmmhhh

North Sea oil in the 1910's......even more mmmhhhh

At this time the only to areas that can be considered are Persia and if more attention had been paid Nigeria.
 
Saudi Arabia oil in the 1910's...........mmmhhh

North Sea oil in the 1910's......even more mmmhhhh
North sea is technically too hard (at least the stuff in the north deep near GB, and you don't want Germany to find the southern stuff) but is Saudi oil that deep or hard to get out ?
 
North sea is technically too hard (at least the stuff in the north deep near GB, and you don't want Germany to find the southern stuff) but is Saudi oil that deep or hard to get out ?

Isn't Saudi Arabia still Ottoman territory at this time?
 
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Now four batch two Queen Elizabeth-class with small tube boilers and able to make a genuine 25 knots-plus then that would be a real bonus.
I've seen different estimates of slightly rejigged Queen Elizabeth-class ships using small tube boilers having a top speed of between 26 and as high as 28 knots, although personally 26 knots seems more likely. If as part of the second batch they were to lengthen the hulls a touch fore and aft and/or re-design the bow slightly then that would most likely get you the increase to 26 knots or the same speed as our timeline but with heavier armour. Later modernisations of the boilers and turbines could then push it up to 28 knots but that would likely be cancelled out by the addition of torpedo bulges, IIRC they cost 2 knots speed when added, so they stay with a 26 knot top speed.
 
North sea is technically too hard (at least the stuff in the north deep near GB, and you don't want Germany to find the southern stuff) but is Saudi oil that deep or hard to get out ?

Exactly...and Lawn Thawn has mentioned the first problem with Saudi oil at that time.
 
Saudi & the gulf before WW1

Saudi may have been in the ottoman empire before the war, but control was very loose.
Iraq was under stronger Ottoman control.
Bahrain was a british protectorate, and so were the Trucial states - now the United Arab Emirates - and Qatar.
So plenty of oil rich states under the British flag, without needing to touch the Ottoman empire.
 
IIRC The Kimmerage oil shale deposits in Dorset had been explored/exploited from the mid Victorian period. If fuel oil security for the RN become an issue earlier then perhaps the onshore oil field at Whyche Farm is butterflied earlier by a quarter of a century.
 
IOTL

5 Queen Elisabeths were ordered in the 1912-13 Estimates
5 Revenges were ordered in the 1913-14 Estimates
3 Revenges were ordered in the 1914-15 Estimates, plus a 6th Queen Elisabeth.

But when Fisher returned to the Admiralty he had the 1914-15 ships cancelled and replaced with the 2 Repulse class and the 3 follies were built in place of the 1914 ships.

Then we get the Hood class which IIRC were originally Super Queen Elisabeth class fast battleships.

The Washington Treaty allowed the British Empire to keep Hood, 2 Repulse class, 5 Revenge class, 5 Queen Elizabeth class, 4 Iron Duke class, the Tiger and built Nelson and Rodney, making a grand total of 20 capital ships.

What I would have done

5 Queen Elisabeths were ordered in the 1913-13 Estimates
5 Queen Elisabeths were ordered in the 1913-14 Estimates
4 Queen Elisabeths were ordered in the 1914-15 Estimates

The 4 ships in the 1914-15 Estimates were completed and another 2 ordered in the War Emergency Programme, making a grand total of 16 Queen Elisabeth class fast battleships.

All 16 were built with oil fired, small tube boilers. However, the weight saved was used to increase their maximum speed to the specified 25 knots. The rest of the saved weight was used to increase the weight of armour, which was arranged on the all-or-nothing principle.

Instead of the Hood class the Royal Navy would order 4 repeat Queen Elisabeths because they were a proven design that could be built quickly than a new ones. Or they would be fast battleships mounting twelve 15" in four triple turrets and a speed of 25 knots. The standard displacement of the new ships would be 32,000 to 35,000 tons.

The smaller displacement compared to the real Hood class means that it will be easier when negotiating The Washington Treaty. The British Empire is allowed to keep the 4 Hoods and all 16 Queen Elisabeth class. Iron Duke is kept as a gunnery training ship and one of her sisters becomes the radio controlled target ship in place of Centurion. Nelson and Rodney are not built. The £15 million saved is spent on new aircraft carriers or on mid-life refits for the Queen Elisabeth class.

This also means that the knock-on effects on the other navies are minimal. As the British Empire has 4 post-Jutland ships instead of 3 the United States might demand that the 4th Colorado has to be completed, turning the "Big Five" into the "Big Six," but there would be no change to the French, Italians or Japanese.

IOTL there Royal Navy's capital ship organisation had by the late 1930s evolved into the Battle Cruiser Squadron (BCS), 1st Battle Squadron (1BS) in control of the Mediterranean Fleet's battleships, the 2nd Battle Squadron (2BS) for the Atlantic Fleet's battleships and the 3rd (Boys Training) Battle Squadron (3BS), which consisted of the 4 Iron Dukes.

ITTL there would be 4 battle squadrons, one of which would be the boys training squadron and each would nominally consist of 4 ships for a total of 16 in commission and the other 4 undergoing long refits or in reserve.

All other things being equal the 5 oldest ships are scrapped under the 1930 London Treaty. However, even if built to the standard of OTL they would be much better ships than the 4 Iron Dukes and Tiger, which were sacrificed IOTL, so the Admiralty would be more reluctant to give them up. Therefore the second London Treaty still extends the battleship building holiday to the end of 1936, but the capital ships that were scrapped by all nations under the OTL treaty could be retained. Therefore the ships that form the Boys Training Squadron ITTL are put into reserve in 1930, rather than being scrapped. They are brought back into service after 1936 as part of the rearmament programme.

IOTL the 5 Queen Elisabeths (and IIRC the 2 Renowns) had refits in the 1920s costing £1 million each. Then in the 1930s, Queen Elisabeth, Renown, Valiant and Warspite had refits costing about £3 million each. Malaya and Repulse had less extensive refits costing about £1 million each. However, ITTL all 16-20 ships have more armour which was arranged on the all-or-nothing system. Therefore cheaper and therefore less expensive modernisations might be needed.

Therefore the modernisation of TTL might involve replacing the machinery which was wearing out, giving the 15" guns greater elevation and a fitting a new superstructure. The completed ships might look like Warspite after her 1934-37 refit. I'd like to see the 16 oldest ships brought up to that standard by 1937. Then the 4 ships that took the place of Hood, Nelson and Rodney would be modernised 1936-40 instead of Queen Elisabeth, Renown and Valiant. Their refit would also see their secondary armament replaced by twenty 4.5" in ten twin turrets.

Although my refit might cost less than Warspite's refit IOTL and £15 million was available because Nelson and Rodney weren't built it is still going to involve the spending of more money to have 16 ships modernised by the end of 1937. Similarly 4 Hood class modernisations 1936-40 are going to cost more than the 3 capital ships that were modernised then IOTL.
 
That should have gone into the Alt Washington Treaty thread. Sorry.

However, I do think that building more Queen Elisabeth's, even at the OTL standard, would have been better than what happened IOTL and more Renown class instead of the Revenge class.
 
I haven't looked for the notes I made, but I did read a book about World War I battleships where the DNC claimed that if small tube boilers had been fitted to Queen Elizabeth and Tiger they would have been able to make 28 and 32 knots respectively.
I think I read that one as well although I wasn't really convinced as they're the only person I've seen to ever state that much of a potential increase, plus past a certain point the shape of the hull is going to limit how many extra knots you can make without an unreasonable increase in shaft horsepower.

If Nigerian oil had been discovered earlier like you mention then an ideal scenario, depending on if you could move the development of the BL 15-inch Mk I earlier, to my mind would be the Iron Duke-class being built as effectively our timeline's Queen Elizabeth-class but with small tube boilers for a top speed of 26 knots and the follow on Queen Elizabeth-class being lengthened a bit forward and aft with a slightly redesigned bow to allow them to make 28 knots. Come the Battle of Jutland these three Iron Duke and four Queen Elizabeth-class ships could give the Germans a nasty surprise since they would either match or outpace even their battle-cruisers respectively.
 
I think I read that one as well although I wasn't really convinced as they're the only person I've seen to ever state that much of a potential increase, plus past a certain point the shape of the hull is going to limit how many extra knots you can make without an unreasonable increase in shaft horsepower.

If Nigerian oil had been discovered earlier like you mention then an ideal scenario, depending on if you could move the development of the BL 15-inch Mk I earlier, to my mind would be the Iron Duke-class being built as effectively our timeline's Queen Elizabeth-class but with small tube boilers for a top speed of 26 knots and the follow on Queen Elizabeth-class being lengthened a bit forward and aft with a slightly redesigned bow to allow them to make 28 knots. Come the Battle of Jutland these three Iron Duke and four Queen Elizabeth-class ships could give the Germans a nasty surprise since they would either match or outpace even their battle-cruisers respectively.

I would take 26 knot IDs!

So how much would small tube boilers save in weight?

As I understand it one of the issue impacting the QEs was that they were heavier than intended so this slowed them down from the planned 25 knots to as slow as 23 due to less than planned free board creating extra drag - incorporate a slightly heavier displacement into the design to compensate - perhaps from learnings from an earlier oil fired Iron Duke class suffering from this issue as you suggest and this coupled with a more powerful set of machinery - I am guessing something in the region of 100,000 SHP (as opposed to the OTL 75,000 SHP) should provide the hoped for 28 knots.


How would this impact the Renown class - 32 knots - as armed but with more armour - but how much more?

I'm guessing it would allow something like its post war refit i.e. 9"+ Belt and more deck armour over vitals - and then additional armour in the 20s - although not as great a need as OTL

And with say the OTL 2 + 2 built instead of the follies and the Revenges a follow on class from the QEs - what need is there of a Hood class?

Also some how POD the Canadian Naval Bill of 1913 to have it accepted and 3 more units Acadia, Quebec and Ontario might also be built as HMS or HMCS?

Add in the 6th planned QE - HMS Agincourt + the follow on 5 Revenges and we could have ourselves 14 QE class fast Battleships and say 4 up armoured Renown Battle cruisers by 1917

Plus the 4 up gunned faster IDs

No need for the Admirals at all :D
 
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