Let's say Queen Victoria pressures or talks Alix into marrying Prince AV instead of Nicky. Who would the heartbroken Nicholas have married now since she is out of the picture? Helene of Orleans wouldn't have worked either way since Count de Paris and Pope wouldn't allow it.
 
Wasn't there option to marry someone Montenegrian princess?

If AV and Alexandra have son it might go intrestingly if he inherits hemophilia.
 
Wasn't there option to marry someone Montenegrian princess?

If AV and Alexandra have son it might go intrestingly if he inherits hemophilia.
The Montenegrin sisters apparently were
e the ones that introduced Alexandra to Rasputin (however I doubt Rasputin would have as much influence as he had in OTL). So that's one thing to keep in mind and also if Russia were to strengthen it's ties with the Balkans, Britain would try to intervene (because of balance of power). Also from what I heard Alexander and Minnie wanted Nicholas to marry Helene of Orleans (who is obliviously out of the question) or Margrethe of Prussia (the alternate to Alix of Hesse. Who Minnie would have tolerated more.)
That would be interesting if AV had survived his illness. If He had son with hemophilia (which would have been more likely than if Alix and Nicky had another son) would have died in his 30s like his uncle Leopold, would the throne go George V like in our OTl or if they had a daughter?
 
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If AV and Alexandra have son it might go intrestingly if he inherits hemophilia.
not particularly. In Russia, girls couldn't inherit so Alix had a lot of pressure put on her. In England, girls could inherit, so that likely removes a major cause of her depression and anxiety. Plus, there were about three haemophiliacs at the British court at the time (the countess of Athlone's son, one of Princess Beatrice's sons and someone else). Also, while in Russia, Alix was criticized for her isolationism, in London - after Victoria's retirement since 1863, most people are gonna go "meh".

The Montenegrin sisters apparently were
e the ones that introduced Alexandra to Rasputin (however I doubt Rasputin would have as much influence as he had in OTL). So that's one thing to keep in mind and also if Russia were to strengthen it's ties with the Balkans, Britain would try to intervene (because of balance of power). Also from what I heard Alexander and Minnie wanted Nicholas to marry Helene of Orleans (who is obliviously out of the question) or Margrethe of Prussia (the alternate to Alix of Hesse. Who Minnie would have tolerated more.)
Minnie wanted Hélène, Alex III wanted Margarethe of Prussia, Nicky wanted Alix of Hesse. Nicky threatened to join a monastery if he wasn't allowed to marry Alix. Let Nicky join a monastery. Hélène will never be empress of Russia unless her father relents (the pope was simply falling back on the comte de Paris' refusal according to Deborah Cadbury's bio, rather than that the pope had any opinions this way or that). So now we have an unmarried George. Same problem. But given that Minnie was close to the Leuchtenbergs and the Oldenburgskis, perhaps a way out of the impasse is to allow Nicky "time" to get over Alix, but then to "shore up" the succession by marrying Georg to an alt daughter of Georg of Leuchtenberg and Therese of Oldenburg (the pair only married in 1879, when Therese was already 27yo, they could marry a decade earlier). An alternative to a Beauharnais would be Marie of Baden (OTL Duchess of Anhalt), daughter of Wilhelm of Baden and Maria of Leuchtenberg, and sister of Minnie's niece's husband, Max of Baden. The Badens (at least that branch) were regarded as "acceptable" to the Glucksborgs, since Thyra had exploited Empress Sisi's absence from Vienna to open a Hofbal (the annual debutante's ball in January) with FJ, then twist his ear about "what a cute couple" Max of Baden and Marie Luise of Hannover made "so much nicer than that ghastly duchess of Teschen's daughter". FJ agreed with her and Marie Luise and Max were engaged soon after.

As a second son, Georg Alexandrovich contracting a "domestic" marriage isn't crazy (Alex III had been supposed to marry Therese of Oldenburg's sister, Tina), so it would be a suitable (and unmorganatic) if not a brilliant match.
That would be interesting if AV had survived his illness. If He had son with hemophilia (which would have been more likely than if Alix and Nicky had another son) would have died in his 30s like his uncle Leopold, would the throne go George V like in our OTl or if they had a daughter?
AV's daughter
 
But given that Minnie was close to the Leuchtenbergs and the Oldenburgskis, perhaps a way out of the impasse is to allow Nicky "time" to get over Alix, but then to "shore up" the succession by marrying Georg to an alt daughter of Georg of Leuchtenberg and Therese of Oldenburg (the pair only married in 1879, when Therese was already 27yo, they could marry a decade earlier). An alternative to a Beauharnais would be Marie of Baden (OTL Duchess of Anhalt), daughter of Wilhelm of Baden and Maria of Leuchtenberg, and sister of Minnie's niece's husband, Max of Baden. The Badens (at least that branch) were regarded as "acceptable" to the Glucksborgs, since Thyra had exploited Empress Sisi's absence from Vienna to open a Hofbal (the annual debutante's ball in January) with FJ, then twist his ear about "what a cute couple" Max of Baden and Marie Luise of Hannover made "so much nicer than that ghastly duchess of Teschen's daughter". FJ agreed with her and Marie Luise and Max were engaged soon after.

As a second son, Georg Alexandrovich contracting a "domestic" marriage isn't crazy (Alex III had been supposed to marry Therese of Oldenburg's sister, Tina), so it would be a suitable (and unmorganatic) if not a brilliant match.
So basically have George sired up a couple of potential heirs before he dies just in case, Nicky doesn't get over his heartbreak and decides to join the monastery?
Could Alex III allowed a marriage between Nicky and one of his first cousins? He had a crush on his cousin, Victoria of Wales (OTL didn't married, eldest daughter of Edward VII and Alexandra (Minnie's older sister)). Would Edward and Alexandra had allowed said marriage to take place? I read Victoria was quite close knitted with her parents, particularly Alexandra (who supported her decision to not marry). It would be kinda awkward if they had married and Nicky bumped into Alix at their wedding.
 
So basically have George sired up a couple of potential heirs before he dies just in case,
Georg's death is pretty butterfliable IMO. He only caught TB in 1890. Victoria was pushing for Alix-Eddy in 1888
Could Alex III allowed a marriage between Nicky and one of his first cousins?
he could. The question is why. George, Xenia and Olga are already being wasted on domestic matches. Nicky's the only hope for a "decent" match abroad.
I read Victoria was quite close knitted with her parents, particularly Alexandra (who supported her decision to not marry). It would be kinda awkward if they had married and Nicky bumped into Alix at their wedding.

The way I heard it was that Alexandra sort of "obliged" Toria to be little more than a glorified lady's maid by keeping her a spinster (not unlike Minnie did with Olga Alexandrovna or Victoria did with Beatrice). I have never read that Toria wanted to not marry. AIUI there were several proposals for her: including from Franz Ferdinand (who was supposed to be looking over Hélène d'Orléans), VE III of Italy (but his mother, Margherita of Genoa, refused to walk one step behind a king's daughter), as well as Dolly of Teck and Robert Holford (Eddy's equerry)
 
The way I heard it was that Alexandra sort of "obliged" Toria to be little more than a glorified lady's maid by keeping her a spinster (not unlike Minnie did with Olga Alexandrovna or Victoria did with Beatrice). I have never read that Toria wanted to not marry. AIUI there were several proposals for her: including from Franz Ferdinand (who was supposed to be looking over Hélène d'Orléans), VE III of Italy (but his mother, Margherita of Genoa, refused to walk one step behind a king's daughter), as well as Dolly of Teck and Robert Holford (Eddy's equerry)
So Tori and Nicky could have been a possible match?
 
The way I heard it was that Alexandra sort of "obliged" Toria to be little more than a glorified lady's maid by keeping her a spinster (not unlike Minnie did with Olga Alexandrovna or Victoria did with Beatrice). I have never read that Toria wanted to not marry. AIUI there were several proposals for her: including from Franz Ferdinand (who was supposed to be looking over Hélène d'Orléans), VE III of Italy (but his mother, Margherita of Genoa, refused to walk one step behind a king's daughter), as well as Dolly of Teck and Robert Holford (Eddy's equerry)
Ah, poor old Toria. Not a very happy person but an interesting one all the same.

It's always been the consensus that Toria didn't want to marry because she didn't want to leave the United Kingdom and that her parents never sought to find her a husband because Alexandra in particular wanted at least one of her daughters to stay at home. I think that's partly true. It's entirely possible that Alexandra only agreed that Maud and Louise should marry because she still had Toria to rely upon. But it's worth saying that Bertie and Alix never once turned down a proposal of marriage for Toria on her behalf without discussing it with her first, so the possibility remained and if Toria really wanted to accept one of the many suitors she had? She would have been "allowed" to. As you say, there's nothing to suggest that she was dead set against marriage either. It just never happened.

Of the "Kings", I don't think Toria ever once considered any of them seriously. After all, why would she throw away a very comfortable life with her mother in the country of her birth to go to a new country, a foreign court and a husband she didn't really know? Supposedly in the early 1890s she developed a serious affection for the Earl of Rosebery but this was never reciprocated. Rosebery was actually quite irritated when the court gossips leaked the story out to the newspapers. Toria did consider King Carlos I of Portugal more seriously than any of the others but she supposedly turned him down because a) he was a Catholic and b) she didn't believe she'd be happier in Lisbon than she was in London.

But Nicky and Toria...there's an idea. Personally I can't see a world in which it would ever have happened. On paper, it absolutely works. But then you look at the personalities involved and realise Nicky probably would have been horrified at the suggestion. Toria was never much liked in the family, even when she was younger. She was incredibly intelligent, very bookish and serious but this came at the cost of a sense of humour. She could never really join in with the fun and games and behaved as if she were above it all. And as she grew older, she actually became quite malicious and spiteful. She was quite fond of poison pen letters and causing disagreements between her siblings and the only one who ever really liked her was George V - nobody quite knows why but he was apparently able to look past all this and found her delightful company. So much so that when she died, he was absolutely devastated and it's said this contributed to his own death, the heartbreak of losing his favourite sister, etc.

Toria's behaviour has always been "blamed" on Alexandra. The fact that Toria was kept a spinster, that she was bored, resentful etc, and therefore "acted out" for attention in her later years, certainly after Alexandra died and she was left all alone at Coppins. But I disagree with that entirely. I think that was just her personality and certainly she didn't "turn spiteful" because of her mother's death - it was always there. So I don't think Nicky would ever have seen his cousin as a viable bride...because I can't see he'd really want to spend any time with her, let alone marry her. That said, Alix Hesse was certainly no picnic in the personality department and Nicky overlooked that. And then some.

The problem is, I just can't see Toria ever accepting Nicky if the offer came. She was very fond of him, she enjoyed her visits to Russia but far from being put upon and trapped in a life of missed opportunity, she chose her own path. She enjoyed the independence and freedom of the single life and I don't think she ever truly wanted to give that up. There's also an issue with religion - I'd need to refresh myself on the rules of the Orthodox Church but I believe first cousins can't marry - in that Toria was actually quite interested in religion in a very academic way but she was also quite a devout Protestant. In her later years, she got herself involved with a kind of new evangelical religious movement - and gave them quite a large sum of money. I'm not entirely sure she'd welcome the idea of converting to Orthodoxy.

But also, you have to ask what Toria would gain from it. The "maid" element of her life has been exaggerated IMO. She was Alexandra's "companion" but the Queen would never have given her daughter menial tasks. Toria acted as a kind of secretary to her mother in the same way as Princess Beatrice assisted Queen Victoria, not because Toria was unmarried and therefore had nothing else to do but because Toria genuinely enjoyed that kind of existence. And it came with great rewards. In her place in the pecking order, she might have expected that (as an unmarried woman) her life might be a bore. Instead, she was a permanent fixture at the Edwardian court, she was right there at her mother's side experiencing first hand the grandeur and extravagance but also a much more important position than her status otherwise might have dictated.

I don't see that she'd ever give that up - even if she could have outranked her own mother.

Not what I said. I asked why would they
Just to clarify, I know this was not an idea you proposed, I was just speculating on the possibility!
 
What effect would Nicholas II marrying Margarethe of Prussia have on things?
World War I would still happen as the OTL. Also, Minnie was very anti German because of Christian IX's loss of Schleswig Holstein so she wouldn't be on good terms with Mossy. Also apparently, Nicky wasn't interested in Margarethe. But, Wilhelm wouldn't have like this match because he had a whole tantrum about Sophia converting to Orthodox.
 
Let's say Queen Victoria pressures or talks Alix into marrying Prince AV instead of Nicky. Who would the heartbroken Nicholas have married now since she is out of the picture? Helene of Orleans wouldn't have worked either way since Count de Paris and Pope wouldn't allow it.
Nicholas II could have married his first cousin Princess Marie of Edinburgh( OTL Queen Marie of Romania). She was half Russian, her mother being Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. Her father was Prince Alfred, son of Queen Victoria. Both Nicholas II and Marie were grandchildren of Tsar Alexander II.

Princess Marie was quite a catch and would have been an outstanding choice for Nicholas II.

In OTL, when Prince Victor Albert, AKA "Eddy", died, his brother Prince George (later King George V) became heir to the British throne. He always had a crush on Princess Marie and during the aftermath of Prince Victor’s death, Queen Victoria and others in the British royal family were very keen on Prince George and Princess Marie marrying. The marriage never happened because Princess Marie’s mother did not want her to live in England. The mother, Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, AKA the Duchess of Edinburgh, cited the Orthodox church law against first cousins marrying.

A biography of the later Queen Marie of Romania, "The Last Romantic" by Hannah Pakula, sums up this royal episode..
The Last Romantic said:
(Pages 57 )"While the Duchess of Edinburgh was plotting Missy's German alliance, Queen Victoria and the Wales family were still planning for her to marry George of England. In early 1892, George's future unexpectedly changed. His older brother, Eddy ,stricken with flu, died of pneumonia on January 14 ((1892)). Suddenly George was in line for the English throne. ((His parents)) The Prince and Princess of Wales tendered a tentative proposal of marriage on his behalf to the Edinburghs((Missy's family)). Their offer was refused outright by the Duchess ((Missy's mother))...

...George did not rely on his parents to do his proposing for him. Having heard of Missy's Russian suitor (George Michaelovitch), but ironically not about Ferdinand ((of Romania)), he wrote her a personal letter, hoping to prevent her from promising herself to anyone else before they could speak face-to-face. In the letter he said that he had always understood that the two of them would one day, when she was old enough, marry. Missy's answer, written from Coburg, was dictated by her mother. It said that although she was fond of George, "he must not think that there was anything definite in the friendship that had sprung up between them at Malta."

The Edinburgh refusal sent shock waves through the Queen's family."

This "No First Cousin Marriages" was only a ruse by the Grand Duchess because she raised no objections when her younger daughter, Princess Victoria Melita later married her first cousin Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse. And when Victoria Melita divorced Ernst Ludwig and married a second time to another first cousin, Grand Duke Kirill of Russia. Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna was perfectly happy with both choices.

The time frame for a marriage between Nicholas II and Princess Marie would fit too. Alix marries Victor Albert on February 27, 1892 (the OTL date when Victor Albert was to have married Princess Mary of Teck) which breaks Nicholas’s heart. It was not until June 1892 OTL that Princess Marie became engaged to Crown Prince Ferdinand of Romania whom she married on January 10, 1893. Nicholas II would have had at least a 4-month window of opportunity to pursue Princess Marie.

And I think Princess Marie’s mother would much rather wanted her daughter to become Tsarina of her native Russia instead of Queen of Romania. In OTL Marie was an outstanding Queen of Romania. In an ATL like this, she would have been an incredible Tsarina of Russia.
 
Nicholas II could have married his first cousin Princess Marie of Edinburgh( OTL Queen Marie of Romania). She was half Russian, her mother being Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. Her father was Prince Alfred, son of Queen Victoria. Both Nicholas II and Marie were grandchildren of Tsar Alexander II.

Princess Marie was quite a catch and would have been an outstanding choice for Nicholas II.

In OTL, when Prince Victor Albert, AKA "Eddy", died, his brother Prince George (later King George V) became heir to the British throne. He always had a crush on Princess Marie and during the aftermath of Prince Victor’s death, Queen Victoria and others in the British royal family were very keen on Prince George and Princess Marie marrying. The marriage never happened because Princess Marie’s mother did not want her to live in England. The mother, Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, AKA the Duchess of Edinburgh, cited the Orthodox church law against first cousins marrying.

A biography of the later Queen Marie of Romania, "The Last Romantic" by Hannah Pakula, sums up this royal episode..


This "No First Cousin Marriages" was only a ruse by the Grand Duchess because she raised no objections when her younger daughter, Princess Victoria Melita later married her first cousin Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse. And when Victoria Melita divorced Ernst Ludwig and married a second time to another first cousin, Grand Duke Kirill of Russia. Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna was perfectly happy with both choices.

The time frame for a marriage between Nicholas II and Princess Marie would fit too. Alix marries Victor Albert on February 27, 1892 (the OTL date when Victor Albert was to have married Princess Mary of Teck) which breaks Nicholas’s heart. It was not until June 1892 OTL that Princess Marie became engaged to Crown Prince Ferdinand of Romania whom she married on January 10, 1893. Nicholas II would have had at least a 4-month window of opportunity to pursue Princess Marie.

And I think Princess Marie’s mother would much rather wanted her daughter to become Tsarina of her native Russia instead of Queen of Romania. In OTL Marie was an outstanding Queen of Romania. In an ATL like this, she would have been an incredible Tsarina of Russia.
I never considered Marie but she would have been an outstanding choice and was a remarkable woman. Missy would have been more accepted in Russia due to her Romanov heritage than Alix and would have undoubtedly had more influence in the Russian court since her mother had already established many Russian traditions at their family estate. However, would Nicky and Missy have been compatible enough, what was their relationship in the otl?
 
Nicholas II could have married his first cousin Princess Marie of Edinburgh( OTL Queen Marie of Romania). She was half Russian, her mother being Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. Her father was Prince Alfred, son of Queen Victoria. Both Nicholas II and Marie were grandchildren of Tsar Alexander II.

Princess Marie was quite a catch and would have been an outstanding choice for Nicholas II.

In OTL, when Prince Victor Albert, AKA "Eddy", died, his brother Prince George (later King George V) became heir to the British throne. He always had a crush on Princess Marie and during the aftermath of Prince Victor’s death, Queen Victoria and others in the British royal family were very keen on Prince George and Princess Marie marrying. The marriage never happened because Princess Marie’s mother did not want her to live in England. The mother, Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, AKA the Duchess of Edinburgh, cited the Orthodox church law against first cousins marrying.

A biography of the later Queen Marie of Romania, "The Last Romantic" by Hannah Pakula, sums up this royal episode..


This "No First Cousin Marriages" was only a ruse by the Grand Duchess because she raised no objections when her younger daughter, Princess Victoria Melita later married her first cousin Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse. And when Victoria Melita divorced Ernst Ludwig and married a second time to another first cousin, Grand Duke Kirill of Russia. Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna was perfectly happy with both choices.

The time frame for a marriage between Nicholas II and Princess Marie would fit too. Alix marries Victor Albert on February 27, 1892 (the OTL date when Victor Albert was to have married Princess Mary of Teck) which breaks Nicholas’s heart. It was not until June 1892 OTL that Princess Marie became engaged to Crown Prince Ferdinand of Romania whom she married on January 10, 1893. Nicholas II would have had at least a 4-month window of opportunity to pursue Princess Marie.

And I think Princess Marie’s mother would much rather wanted her daughter to become Tsarina of her native Russia instead of Queen of Romania. In OTL Marie was an outstanding Queen of Romania. In an ATL like this, she would have been an incredible Tsarina of Russia.
Nicholas being who he was, I cannot see him agreeing to marry a first cousin when that goes against the Orthodox Church
 
Nicholas being who he was, I cannot see him agreeing to marry a first cousin when that goes against the Orthodox Church

What was Alex III's opinion on first-cousin marriages? Also, since reality has kicked into Nicky that he can't marry Alix, he would finally give in to his parent's demands to marry the woman they wanted. Marie would have been a suitable match despite the first cousin rule and if Alex III were ever to allow such marriage.
 
Hopefully one of the many very informed posters can enlighten me, how was serious was Nicholas's threat to join a monastery? I am not doubting his own sincerity, but rather, was this a realistic threat in any way? Was there any monastery in the Russian Empire that would have actually admitted the heir to throne as a novice, against the wishes of the Emperor?
 
Hopefully one of the many very informed posters can enlighten me, how was serious was Nicholas's threat to join a monastery? I am not doubting his own sincerity, but rather, was this a realistic threat in any way? Was there any monastery in the Russian Empire that would have actually admitted the heir to throne as a novice, against the wishes of the Emperor?
@Kellan Sullivan was Nicky ever serious about joining the monastery?
 
What was Alex III's opinion on first-cousin marriages? Also, since reality has kicked into Nicky that he can't marry Alix, he would finally give in to his parent's demands to marry the woman they wanted. Marie would have been a suitable match despite the first cousin rule and if Alex III were ever to allow such marriage.
See the thing is imho the first cousin marriage prohibition makes her an unsuitable match…might as well pair Nicky with a Greek princess, who would come with the bonus of being orthodox
 
See the thing is imho the first cousin marriage prohibition makes her an unsuitable match…might as well pair Nicky with a Greek princess, who would come with the bonus of being orthodox

Nicky was also first cousins with the Greek Princesses through his mother, George I of Greece was Minnie's older brother.
 
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