Alexander the great fights against the early Roman republic: who would win.

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It's surprising to learn that one of the first pieces of " what if" speculative history was by the Roman writer Livy on the hypothetical outcome of a war between Alexander the great and his army (who decided not to go East but West to Italy) and the forces of the Roman republic at the time.

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Livy2.html

He reaches to conclusion that, given the huge amount of resources and manpower available to Rome, the comparatively small size of the Macedonian army and Rome's ability to withstand military catastrophes would eventually lead to Rome's victory. But is this strategic assessment correct?

Well firstly, lets look at manpower and the size of each army. Livy in this piece reckons the total manpower of Rome at the time ( taken from surveys done during the period) was roughly 250,000 men, citing that during the Latin wars a full 10 legions could be deployed from city levy, with 4 or 5 legions deployed throughout Italy ( though the accuracy of this assessment is unsure.) . Let us also factor in Romes allies, the Sabine's, Volscans, Latins, Aequians, Umbria, parts of Etruria as well as several other mentioned tribes. Potential allies of a Macedonian expeditionary such as the Samnites or the Greeks of Cumae and Neopolis had recently been crushed or bound by treaties to Rome.

However, the loyalty of these allies to Rome was in many cases dubious to the extreme, with many possibly seeking to abandon Rome should she suffer a major defeat. Also bear in mind that Rome had recently come out of a drawn out and exhausting war with the Samnites as well as being forced to dissipate her armies throughout her territory to keep her "allies" in check. By looking at the size of an average Roman army during the then recent Samnite wars, the average size of a Roman army was 25-30,000 men.

Alexanders force on the other hand would be much smaller overall, with perhaps 20-25,000 heavy infantry, 20,000 peltasts and roughly 5-600 cavalry, mostly his companion and Thessalonian cavalry. A total of 50,000 men in all, with perhaps several thousand more reinforcements arriving later on. This leaves him at a infantry advantage, but a considerable cavalry advantage.

Now to the troop quality. Here the Macedonian's have the edge, with many of the Phalanx pikemen being veterans of Philips and more recently, Alexanders campaign against the Greeks. The cavalry was also elite, with its core being the Companion cavalry, noblemen loyal to Alexander personally and many of them had fought along side him for several years before hand. He also had at his disposal powerful light infantry from Illyria and Thrace. The phalanx at the time was a well oiled killing machine, that was not yet the top heavy death trap of later years, making it a deadly force when combined with cavalry. However, it was not as flexible as Roman troops and liable to being outflanked and surrounded. Attrition would also sap moral faster then the Romans, who would be fighting on their own soil.

The roman force was not the post Marian killing machine we imagine of later years, but rather a mixture of Samnite and Greek influence. Many men still fought in a phalanx , though Roman commanders were then adapting the way of fighting of their samnite enemies, making them more flexible. Hastati, the fittest men in the city, made up the front lines. They were supported by Principes who would add support, while Triarii ( the veterans) would act as reserves. All these men were armed with Javelins and short stabbing swords ( not yet Gladius though) that were perfect for close quarters combat. Most would be green, but many were veterans of the Samnite wars. They lacked a strong cavalry contingent however.

Livy also points out, correctly, that Alexander was a superior commander, though many Roman commanders at the time, including Quintus Fabius Maximus ( not be confused with the creator of the Fabian strategy in the Punic wars) , Marcus Valerius Corvus and Caius Marcius Rutilus to name a few were all experienced commanders.

Livy comes to the same conclusion as I: That like Hannibal or Pyrrhus of Epirus, Alexander would likely win the first few battles and inflict severe casualties on the Roman forces, but ultimately lack the forces to successfully capture Rome itself and eventually be forced to withdraw due to attrition or face defeat. He could win battles, but not win the war.

But what is your opinion?
 
I think this was a bit of propaganda on Livy's part to make Rome look better than the East. Alexander would crush Rome the same way he crushed Persia.
 
I think this was a bit of propaganda on Livy's part to make Rome look better than the East. Alexander would crush Rome the same way he crushed Persia.

Well the bit at the which says basically " we will always win because we're just and righteous e.c.t defiantly shows that this is part propaganda. He also over glorifies the Roman commanders ( calling them " undefeated"
.........ignoring the battle of Claudine Fields.)

However, he does point out some important strategic facts, including manpower and resolve that would help even things in the republics favor. Also bear in mind this is not a diverse, loosely bounded empire that would crumble without a clear leader. The republic and it's allies, while admittedly not as large as the Persians forces, would be all round more experienced and have higher moral then the average Median peasant-after all, not many states in ancient times could withstand losing 70,000 men on one day ( Cannae) and still win......or be looted by angry Gauls ( great TL by the way!)
I think she would endure and win in the end-but not after a few major defeats.
 
I think this was a bit of propaganda on Livy's part to make Rome look better than the East. Alexander would crush Rome the same way he crushed Persia.

And another thing.........why would Alexander crush Rome like Persia? The situations are very different and the Romans have more personal loyalty to the state. Finally, the fact that they have no king means that they wont just crumble whenever their leader dies.
 
Our attestations as to Roman patriotism mostly come from the point of view of Late Republican Rome or later, I think it's a bit much to attribute an unusual patriotism to Romans. Particularly in the 330s BC.

Let's take Rome in this period. By 335 BC, it had only *just* dissolved the Latin League, and had only controlled Campania for a decade. The Roman's control of Italy was still mostly confined to Central Italy, and was not a particularly heavyweight state at this point. Many of its conquests were fresh, and it had not had time to put down roots. This is a Roman state that only fully stabilised its control over Italy in the 1st century BC, a force of sufficient nous and size is easily going to be able to root it out.

Let's take Alexander. And let's take Persia. Persia was the mightiest military superpower of its day, to an almost ridiculous degree. It had managed to emerge from several civil wars with no noticeable decline in its international power. This was a state capable of logistically equipping armies numbering over 100,000 men, and that covered an area stretching from Anatolia to India. The entirety of modern Iran alone is 8 times the area of Italy. And Alexander, with his forces, was able to occupy this entire massive Empire and defeat its forces over the course of a decade. This was indeed a lengthy conquest, and he died before these conquests were properly stabilised. But why would the Romans actually be able to offer up any significant barriers to Alexander? Is there terrain in Italy that is somehow more difficult than the many mountain ranges and multiple deserts that Alexander crossed? Is the Italian coastline somehow more difficult to supply logistically than the depths of Bactria? Did the Romans offer a particularly fearsome force compared to the Persians? Was Roman manpower somehow of greater depth than Persia's?

Alexander did not conquer Persia because it was a paper tiger, that's a massive disservice to the Achaemenids. Alexander conquered Persia because he possessed military forces capable of doing so, because he was a very good commander, and because he was personally capable of the effort to do so. Given all the trouble that Persian commanders and their remnants caused Alexander, I would hardly characterise them as crumbling as soon as their leader died. In the course of persuing Darius III's assassin's, Alexander had to occupy Bactria and Sogdiana, which then involved two years of first conquest then a fight against rebellions in those areas. They caused him significant trouble.

The weakness that Alexander presented was that Macedon was across the Aegean, and as he advanced into Persia he grew ever more distant from the source of his manpower. Memnon of Rhodes nearly succeeded in exploiting this, by using the forces at his disposal to try to cut Alexander off from Macedon or even to occupy Macedon. His very timely death put a stop to that. But that also illustrate's Rome's weakness; in this era, Rome hasn't got a fleet capable of very much at all as it was yet to develop a need for one. I don't see what resources it has at its disposal that would allow it to disrupt Alexander's campaign in the same way that Memnon attempted to.
 
Alexander did not conquer Persia because it was a paper tiger, that's a massive disservice to the Achaemenids. Alexander conquered Persia because he possessed military forces capable of doing so, because he was a very good commander, and because he was personally capable of the effort to do so. Given all the trouble that Persian commanders and their remnants caused Alexander, I would hardly characterise them as crumbling as soon as their leader died. In the course of persuing Darius III's assassin's, Alexander had to occupy Bactria and Sogdiana, which then involved two years of first conquest then a fight against rebellions in those areas. They caused him significant trouble.
Totally agree, too many people seem to regard the Achaemenids as easy prey rather than recognize the skill and power of Alexander. Given the geographical challenges and significant opponent power of the Persian conquest, I can't see the Romans being more difficult or insurmountable for Alexander. There would be no Roman army equal to Alexander's nor any commander equal to him in ability, the only real obstacles Alexander ever hit were his own mortality and the great distance his ambition entailed...Rome is obviously far more convenient than India.
 
Our attestations as to Roman patriotism mostly come from the point of view of Late Republican Rome or later, I think it's a bit much to attribute an unusual patriotism to Romans. Particularly in the 330s BC.

Let's take Rome in this period. By 335 BC, it had only *just* dissolved the Latin League, and had only controlled Campania for a decade. The Roman's control of Italy was still mostly confined to Central Italy, and was not a particularly heavyweight state at this point. Many of its conquests were fresh, and it had not had time to put down roots. This is a Roman state that only fully stabilised its control over Italy in the 1st century BC, a force of sufficient nous and size is easily going to be able to root it out.

Let's take Alexander. And let's take Persia. Persia was the mightiest military superpower of its day, to an almost ridiculous degree. It had managed to emerge from several civil wars with no noticeable decline in its international power. This was a state capable of logistically equipping armies numbering over 100,000 men, and that covered an area stretching from Anatolia to India. The entirety of modern Iran alone is 8 times the area of Italy. And Alexander, with his forces, was able to occupy this entire massive Empire and defeat its forces over the course of a decade. This was indeed a lengthy conquest, and he died before these conquests were properly stabilised. But why would the Romans actually be able to offer up any significant barriers to Alexander? Is there terrain in Italy that is somehow more difficult than the many mountain ranges and multiple deserts that Alexander crossed? Is the Italian coastline somehow more difficult to supply logistically than the depths of Bactria? Did the Romans offer a particularly fearsome force compared to the Persians? Was Roman manpower somehow of greater depth than Persia's?

Alexander did not conquer Persia because it was a paper tiger, that's a massive disservice to the Achaemenids. Alexander conquered Persia because he possessed military forces capable of doing so, because he was a very good commander, and because he was personally capable of the effort to do so. Given all the trouble that Persian commanders and their remnants caused Alexander, I would hardly characterise them as crumbling as soon as their leader died. In the course of persuing Darius III's assassin's, Alexander had to occupy Bactria and Sogdiana, which then involved two years of first conquest then a fight against rebellions in those areas. They caused him significant trouble.

The weakness that Alexander presented was that Macedon was across the Aegean, and as he advanced into Persia he grew ever more distant from the source of his manpower. Memnon of Rhodes nearly succeeded in exploiting this, by using the forces at his disposal to try to cut Alexander off from Macedon or even to occupy Macedon. His very timely death put a stop to that. But that also illustrate's Rome's weakness; in this era, Rome hasn't got a fleet capable of very much at all as it was yet to develop a need for one. I don't see what resources it has at its disposal that would allow it to disrupt Alexander's campaign in the same way that Memnon attempted to.

True, Persia is no "paper tiger" by any stretch of the imagination and the fact it survived so many civil wars and continued to flourish is a testament to its effectiveness. However, there is something worth noting. Following the battle of Issus and, more significantly, Gaugamela, it is worth noting that once the main Persian force in the area was gone, Persian rule evaporated rapidly and with a few exceptions ( Gaza and Tyre being the exceptions) the local cities allowed the Macedonians in and reassured their loyalty. You point out that the empire was able to wield people together very effectively for 200+years, yet the weakness in the empire is that their is no idea of " we are all in it together." No loyalty to the King of kings outside of tribute military service, no binding cult or national ( or in this case international) single identity. When the whip( or central authority) is gone, the servant does not weep and resist its new master, but instead desecrate his corpse, dishonor his memory and welcome his masters killer with open arms.

With Rome, especially early-mid Republican Rome, it is decidedly different. When Hannibal and Pyrrhus of Epirus inflicted devastating defeats on Rome, their was no mass desertion of her allies, no collapse of the heartland or opening of her city gates. Why? Because Rome enforced her rule more harshly and tellingly. City states were more scared of Rome then the rampaging Carthaginians ( or in this case Macedonians) at her gates. While admittedly defections did happen, and the actual loyalty to Rome was often dubious to say the least, they would defiantly put up a vicious fight against a foreign invader-especially if he was a despise greek barbarian who would most likely commit atrocities against local Italiot tribes ( Alexander had a parchment for slaughtering " Barbarians.) So, i think Rome IF she can weather the initial blows and continue to secure her allies by inflicting heavy casualties on Alexander, will win in the long run.
 
not many states in ancient times could withstand losing 70,000 men on one day ( Cannae) and still win......or be looted by angry Gauls ( great TL by the way!)
I think she would endure and win in the end-but not after a few major defeats.


Cannae was a century later, for the last half of which Rome had controlled the whole of Italy. Even in Pyrrhus time it controlled the Peninsula up to about Bologna. In Alexander's day it held only a fragment - roughly the current Italian region of Lazio - and was making heavy weather just of fighting the Samnites. The disaster at the Caudine Forks was only two years after Alexander's death. True, the Romans did win in the end, but iirc it took them twenty years, and that was just against a single south Italian tribe. The notion that they could beat Alexander sounds distinctly ASB-ish to me.

However, Livy's whole thesis begs the questioin of whether they'd be fighting Alexander in the first place. His first concern in Italy would be to protect the cities of Magna Graecia, whose principal enemy wasn't Rome, but the neighbouring Southern tribes, notably including the Samnites themselves. So my guess is that Rome allies with Alexander, keeps its nose clean as a good little subordinate ally (maybe sending a contingent to help him take Carthage) and bides its time in the knowledge that he's only one man and cannot live forever.
 
With Rome, especially early-mid Republican Rome, it is decidedly different. When Hannibal and Pyrrhus of Epirus inflicted devastating defeats on Rome, their was no mass desertion of her allies, no collapse of the heartland or opening of her city gates. Why? Because Rome enforced her rule more harshly and tellingly. City states were more scared of Rome then the rampaging Carthaginians ( or in this case Macedonians) at her gates. While admittedly defections did happen, and the actual loyalty to Rome was often dubious to say the least, they would defiantly put up a vicious fight against a foreign invader-especially if he was a despise greek barbarian who would most likely commit atrocities against local Italiot tribes ( Alexander had a parchment for slaughtering " Barbarians.) So, i think Rome IF she can weather the initial blows and continue to secure her allies by inflicting heavy casualties on Alexander, will win in the long run.

Hannibal and Pyrrhus are some time after Alexander, meaning some time for Rome's position to be stronger internally and in reagrds to its allies/vassals/subjects. That's a rather important difference.

Edit: I know others have said this before me, but it is a very important point.
 
Alexander, no question. The early republic is not the same as the middle or even the late as already pointed out. It does not have the same manpower reserves, the Legion is not a professional but a militia force, and its tactics and equiptent is not the same standard as well.

Compared to this Alexander would be able to wiled the Macedonian system in its prime (as opposed to the otl clashes of the systems), all branches are of much higher quality than the ones the Romans did face in otl, a large part of its force is battle hardened, and it is very, very well lead.
 
I'd actually wager that at this time the Samnites would give Alexander more trouble, in the same way that they gave a lot of hell to Alexander Molossus (Alexander the Great's brother-in-law) of Epirus at the same time.
 
I'd actually wager that at this time the Samnites would give Alexander more trouble, in the same way that they gave a lot of hell to Alexander Molossus (Alexander the Great's brother-in-law) of Epirus at the same time.

This is true, but bear in mind that the Samnites would have just received a severe beating in the previous war with Rome, and not be in a serous position to resist a fresh war any time soon. My guess is that they would watch from the sidelines to see the outcome of the first engagement, then, if Alexander won, they would no doubt offer their services.
 
Was there a Roman Republic in Alexander's time? I thought that was the Etruscan era in Italy?

The Etruscans were still a power - they controlled roughly modern Tuscany and a bit more but hadn't ruled Rome for a century or two (traditionally since 509BC, but the dates aren't necessarily reliable). Rome ruled a strip of Italy's west coast from the Tuscan border down to Capua. It may have been the strongest single state in Italy, but still a long way from dominating it.
 
OK, so reviving this thread from the dead, let me ask another question. What if Alexander was fighting a coalition of both Carthage and Rome? Both cities were bound by alliance by this point i believe, and both would be fearful of Macedonian expansion. Carthage would destroy Alexander at sea, thus threatening his supply lines. And with her many mercenaries, she wont be a pushover on land either. Could the two allies prevail in a long, drawn out war?
 
OK, so reviving this thread from the dead, let me ask another question. What if Alexander was fighting a coalition of both Carthage and Rome? Both cities were bound by alliance by this point i believe, and both would be fearful of Macedonian expansion. Carthage would destroy Alexander at sea, thus threatening his supply lines. And with her many mercenaries, she wont be a pushover on land either. Could the two allies prevail in a long, drawn out war?

Alexander crushes Carthage first as he would be doing anyway (he had plans for an invasion of Carthage.) Rome can't do didly squat about that as they have no navy to begin with, and if Rome has any brains at all, they aren't going to honor any mutual defense treaty with the Carthaginians against Alexander-they'd know if they do, Alexander is definitely coming for them next, and they are done for.

In Italy, the Romans have no chance in hell of winning. Alexander had marched through the Hindu Kush, fought in the mountains of Baktria, masterfully defeated the most stubborn city to resist him, Tyre, etc.

Rome (who anyway, is just one city state among many at this time) is going to be a walk in a park. If Alexander is going to attack Rome, he'd likely ally with the Samnites, and even if he didn't Rome is screwed. THe appenines are like tiny hills compared to what his men faced in Baktria, and the legend of Roman patriotism and never giving up and all that jazz doesn't start to pop up until the punic wars.

If the Romans have any sense they'd submit to Alexander immediately after their army was crushed in the field, to avoid the inevitable sack of Rome.

In Italy, the Romans don't stand a change i
 
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