With the exception of the Persians (who don't live in the desert) they didn't.
Just look to Alexander the Great for the leading example of that sort of idiocy.
Alcohol-fueled Islam
- Thread starter audace12
- Start date
With the exception of the Persians (who don't live in the desert) they didn't.
Just look to Alexander the Great for the leading example of that sort of idiocy.
ninebucks
Banned
The prohibition of alcohol is very sensible if you consider where it came from. Early nomadic Arabs spent a lot of their time in the desert with small groups of people, or in small settlements surrounded by more desert. Imagine this, a man gets drunk, propositions another man's wife, gets in a fight, ruins all of his group's dynamics, and then stumbles out from the settlement into the desert, where he passes out from his intoxication, and gets fried to death when they sun rises on him. Occurances like that would repeat hundreds of times nightly if nomadic Arab society did not have a prohibition against alcohol.
However, perhaps if this taboo was much more deeply ingrained, to the point where Muhammad never considered explicitly stating that alcohol was not to be drunk, then there would be much more variety in Islam. For example, in the Levant, Turkey and Persia, there is no such reason for alcohol to be forbidden, and so it is possible a booze-culture could develop in these areas.
Perhaps then, since the Islamic fringes are much more... fun, then the influence of Arab culture will be undermined, and more divisive influences embraced. Perhaps an Islamic schism by the second millenium.
However, perhaps if this taboo was much more deeply ingrained, to the point where Muhammad never considered explicitly stating that alcohol was not to be drunk, then there would be much more variety in Islam. For example, in the Levant, Turkey and Persia, there is no such reason for alcohol to be forbidden, and so it is possible a booze-culture could develop in these areas.
Perhaps then, since the Islamic fringes are much more... fun, then the influence of Arab culture will be undermined, and more divisive influences embraced. Perhaps an Islamic schism by the second millenium.
Flocculencio
Donor
Yes- I used this interpretation to good effect in a Muslim Anglo-Saxons TL I did (wasn't that plausible, but hey, it was fun)
Basically Islam was aided in it's spread into England by interpreting the prohibition to be specifically for wine. Thus, your run-of-the-mill Anglo-Saxon bruiser could still have his beer or mead, removing one obstacle towards the common people adopting Islam.
What was less plausible was a relaxing of the prohibition on pork although I did semi-rationalise it by arguing that the yearly pig slaughter was an important factor in enabling peasant families to get through the winter and, as such, came under the rule which states that it's ok to eat haram food if it's necessary for survival.
Well consider this - pork disappeared from the Malaysian and Indonesian cultures all together, without a need to excuse it, and if you want to catch a glimpse at how popular it was in their societies, just look at their non-islamic neighbors.
Also pork vanished from the Bosnian and Albanian (in the 17th century) cuisines.
Alcuin
Banned
Except that the Byzantine Emperor reneged on the dynastic marriage.
Actually, given that interpretation, Catholicism was not a realistic choice because the Poles converted to Catholicism ten years later, so that at this time, the Poles were pagan. Besides, wasn't the Kievan state expanding toward Tmutokoran and Astrakhan at that time?
Alcuin
Banned
And yet my local Turkish delicatessen sells Turkish pork sausages. (And very nice they are too, though not as nice as Polish ones).
Keenir
Banned
he may be Alevi, in that case...so don't ask when the rabbit meat will be on the shelves.
Umm... no? Consider that with Vladimir's conversion in 988, Christianization of the Norse was already under way. Also, Constantinople is quite a bit closer than Sweden and Norway... I am speaking as someone who was born and raised in Kiev (the very same city as the one in question). Kiev's wealth was due to being situated on the trade path "iz Varyag v Greki" (literally, "from the Vikings to the Greeks"), and ironically enough, Rus pagan pantheon was quite close to the Norse one. Even more irony... the Rurikovich dynasty were of Norse origin themselves that by Vladimir's time practically assimilated to the Russian culture.
Plus, another factor remains. While the Rus might have been impressed by the Norse battle prowess, it would not have been much of an impression on them... given that the Rus themselves were assimilated Norsemen, they were not particularly impressed by Norse culture as something to astonish them. Byzantium, on the other hand, at least accordingly to the accounts of ambassadors sent by Vladimir, was another story. Those ambassadors, for example, recalled the service at Hagia Sophia on the account of their arrival as "being of such spectacular beauty that they did not know if they were in heaven or on earth".
Hardly so. If you are familiar with what actually happened, you will note that despite its apparent power, Byzantium is in a middle of civil war at the time. While Kievan Rus did border Byzantine province of Chersonnessus, it was not a situation they considered particularly dangerous - Byzantine interests, other than commercial ones, tended to lay in Italy and Middle East, not in the territories the old Roman Empire never claimed.
Also, note that Basil II's Varangian Guard was in fact almost completely composed of the Rus warriors loaned to him by Vladimir - in fact, Basil II was quite dependent on Vladimir to help him win the civil war, and as a result, there could have been much admiration of culture of Byzantium by the Rus, but not as much fear. Besides, there is wealth that the Rus thought was quite hard to take through any raids on Constantinople, but that was probably Kiev's most profitable trading partner.
Finally, there is another factor that you would need to overcome if you need to make conversion to Islam a viable alternative for Vladimir. Consider that there were already precedents of Christian rulers of Kiev (Olga, in particular, as a regent for fiercely pagan Svyatoslav - Vladimir's predecessor). This leads one to believe that Christianity was already quite widespread in Kiev and beyond, to a much greater degree than any other religion. When all of these factors are taken together, it only leaves Orthodoxy and Catholicism as the only really viable conversion options for Vladimir. So, most, if not all of these need to be altered to seriously bring Islam into picture, alcohol and pork or not.
He did not. Vladimir and Anna (sister of Basil II) were married in Cherson in 988... where are you getting your information from?
Not necessarily - if you consider the idea that it is before the Great Schism of 1054, Vladimir could have at least attempted to flirt with the idea of accepting Papal authority without being technically in breach of communion with Byzantium.
Alcuin
Banned
He did not. Vladimir and Anna (sister of Basil II) were married in Cherson in 988... where are you getting your information from?
The source I have says that Vladimir was baptised on 2 February 988 as it was a condition of his marriage to Anna but that they didn't marry until 989 after Basil had gone back on the agreement and Vladimir had seized Cherson to force Basil to live up to his part of the bargain.
I use the Hutchinson Chronology of World History because it has things nicely laid out in the order in which they happened, really good for counterfactuals (but sadly, I only have Volume 1, which goes up to 1491).
So ultimately, Basil did not renege on his agreement... I did get the date wrong, but the marriage did in fact take place.
Speaking of different conversion for Vladimir... let's say Basil DOES end up reneging on his promises, and even Vladimir's capture of Cherson does not persuade him otherwise. Could it lead to... (drum roll)... Catholic Russia? If Vladimir already converted, but technically Rome and Constantinople have not gone into large-scale Schism yet, he could deal with Rome and, as a result, end up going firmly into the Catholic camp. Where that leads to is another interesting possibility.
Leo Caesius
Banned
It's less of a problem in the desert, where water sources are scarce, and therefore you don't dump your waste into them, bury bodies in the land next to them, or otherwise pollute them.
Alcuin
Banned
I suspect if that happens, Vladimir doesn't convert to Catholicism, he just helps Bardo Phocas (sp) become Emperor instead.
Except that hitting on your friend's wife and passing out in the wilds of the Black Forest or the Scottish Highlands never held back European society.
I can't remember which one (sorry), but one of the early Mughal emperors was an alcoholic. He won his greatest battle by declaring jihad and proving to his troops that he was serious by destroying all the alcohol in his camp, thus inspiring troops that were openly considering returning back home to Afghanistan to instead fight to the death for the Empire.