Alaska,Washington, and Oregon part of Canada

POD's are No Treaty of 1818, Oregon Treaty and the UK buys Alaska before 1867. what effects it would have on the Canada, USA, and the rest of the timeline.
 
Americans Move to "Canada"

The ultimate ownership of Washington and Oregon would be determined by the nationality of the people moving there, not British/Canadian claims. Accordingly, in time they would become part of the USA because the vast majority of settlers were Americans. Think of what happened in Texas.

It is my opinion that Napoleon sold us half our country in the Louisiana Purchase because he knew we would eventually get it anyway...simply by moving in by the thousands. This was an irresistible demographic reality. Same for Oregon/Washington.

Don't know about Alaska.
 
The ultimate ownership of Washington and Oregon would be determined by the nationality of the people moving there, not British/Canadian claims. Accordingly, in time they would become part of the USA because the vast majority of settlers were Americans. Think of what happened in Texas.

It is my opinion that Napoleon sold us half our country in the Louisiana Purchase because he knew we would eventually get it anyway...simply by moving in by the thousands. This was an irresistible demographic reality. Same for Oregon/Washington.

Don't know about Alaska.

Except OTL, Americans moving to Canada assimilated and became Canadians. If the De facto government is British, it will happen in Oregon.
 
The ultimate ownership of Washington and Oregon would be determined by the nationality of the people moving there, not British/Canadian claims. Accordingly, in time they would become part of the USA because the vast majority of settlers were Americans. Think of what happened in Texas.

It is my opinion that Napoleon sold us half our country in the Louisiana Purchase because he knew we would eventually get it anyway...simply by moving in by the thousands. This was an irresistible demographic reality. Same for Oregon/Washington.

Don't know about Alaska.

Sorry, but that's not what Napoleon was thinking. He had every intention of extending French power into the heart of North America. To do that, though, he'd need to retake Saint-Domingue. When that plan failed, and the 15 000 veteran troops he'd had earmarked for Louisiana end up dying in the Haitian jungles, that's when he decided to sell all of Louisiana to the US. Once it became clear that Saint-Domingue was truly lost, it would have been strategically impossible to hold Louisiana with the British in control of the sea lanes in the Caribbean.

A POD at this time (my favourite is that Napoleon decides to not try to reimpose slavery in Saint-Domingue), and you've got 15-20 000 crack French troops in Louisiana and France with every incentive to encourage settlement, the US will be a long time in building up the strength to challenge them.
 
Except OTL, Americans moving to Canada assimilated and became Canadians. If the De facto government is British, it will happen in Oregon.

Americans mmoving into settled areas where the local populace is British assimilated.

Americans moving into 'empty' territory (ie few other whites) didnt.

There werent any british permanent (white) residents, or hardly any, in 'oregon country', and otl the american settlers massively out numbered them.

Changing that is tough.

My TL keeps the US east of the mississippi, or rather pushes them back there, which means theres no good way for Americans to getto the coast.

Until you get rail, its tough, really tough to project military or demographic power from Ontario to the prairies.

The US had settlement iotl and reasonable logistics up to missouri, and the frontier hardships didnt begin until then. No such nice convenient route for Canadians.
 
Gold is discovered in present dayhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Canyon_Gold_Rush British Columbia earlier then in California say 1840. The Hudson Bay Company spreads the word make a great profit bring in men eager to make their fortune. There is a larger population of British subjects in the Pacific north west making the claim on northern Oregon territory fall to Britain.

When the news of the Crimean war filters through a group of patriotic and so claim drunk citizens of the British Pacific Canada take it in themselves to commendary a ship and sail north to liberate Alaska from the Russians.
 
Sorry, but that's not what Napoleon was thinking. He had every intention of extending French power into the heart of North America. To do that, though, he'd need to retake Saint-Domingue. When that plan failed, and the 15 000 veteran troops he'd had earmarked for Louisiana end up dying in the Haitian jungles, that's when he decided to sell all of Louisiana to the US. Once it became clear that Saint-Domingue was truly lost, it would have been strategically impossible to hold Louisiana with the British in control of the sea lanes in the Caribbean.

A POD at this time (my favourite is that Napoleon decides to not try to reimpose slavery in Saint-Domingue), and you've got 15-20 000 crack French troops in Louisiana and France with every incentive to encourage settlement, the US will be a long time in building up the strength to challenge them.

THat's an interesting POD.

Do you think it would draw the US into the Napoleonic Wars?
 
bm79's POD is an excellent way to slow down American interest in that region, but we still need reason to increase British settlement efforts.

The gold rush is not a bad one, but we still need something political.

What I propose is that something happens during the 1790's Nootka crisis between Spain and Britain. This was a dispute over rights to nootka sound in Vancouver island. Spanish naval vessels were seizing British whalers in the region, and naturally the British took offense. Both Countries nearly went to war over the region.

With this avenue we have 2 options:

1) Britain and Spain, go to war over Vancouver Island. This was a VERY real possibility. If Britain wins, it increases settlement there early, and would likely call for Spanish recognition of a wider territorial claim in the Pacific Northwest.

2) Spanish Claims to the Pacific Northwest in the Nootka Convention were largely adopted by the US after the Adams-Onis treaty. This includes Oregon. If Britian is more assertive in her negotiations, or the Convention does not succeed, the US looses this valuable claim.

Nootka Crisis
Nootka Convention
 
The ultimate ownership of Washington and Oregon would be determined by the nationality of the people moving there, not British/Canadian claims. Accordingly, in time they would become part of the USA because the vast majority of settlers were Americans. Think of what happened in Texas.

Britain isn't Mexico.

Will the settlers try it against Britain?
Could they succeed on their own?
Would the US be willing to go to war with Britain over it?
 
Would the US be willing to go to war with Britain over it?
Depends if Britain is tied up elsewhere. If the Empire is fighting the French or the Spanish then land on the edge of the world may be abandoned. If not then "Over your dead body. It is ours!"
 
Britain isn't Mexico.
Will the settlers try it against Britain?
Could they succeed on their own?
Would the US be willing to go to war with Britain over it?

- No, but GB's hold on the region, through the Hudsons Bay Company, was a bit loose.
- They might
- Not likely on their own
- Maybe, depending upon what else is going on at the time.

Keep in mind that in OTL Great Britain was concerned enough about the flow of Americans into the upper Columbia & Fraser river valleys during the Fraser Canyon Gold Rush and worried that this influx could jeopardize their control & sovereignty over the region that they organized British Columbia as a crown colony.
 
Depends if Britain is tied up elsewhere. If the Empire is fighting the French or the Spanish then land on the edge of the world may be abandoned. If not then "Over your dead body. It is ours!"

A bloodier and longer lasting alt-TL Crimean War analogue (or ongoing conflict in China, India or Persia) perhaps?
 
The ultimate ownership of Washington and Oregon would be determined by the nationality of the people moving there, not British/Canadian claims. Accordingly, in time they would become part of the USA because the vast majority of settlers were Americans. Think of what happened in Texas.

I see your Texas and raise you Upper Canada in the early 1800's.
 
I see your Texas and raise you Upper Canada in the early 1800's.

To split hairs, Upper Canada (Ontario) was settled by British loyalists not Americans per se. Seriously though, there was never, soldiers during the War of 1812 aside, a massive flow of Americans into UC for settlement purposes.
 
To split hairs, Upper Canada (Ontario) was settled by British loyalists not Americans per se. Seriously though, there was never, soldiers during the War of 1812 aside, a massive flow of Americans into UC for settlement purposes.

And then it was settled by a majority of American immigrants in the period between the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 due to the British policy of appeasement through low taxes in comparison to spiking American taxes and land costs. They were largely apathetic toward the Monarchy or the Republic, a minority of each were interested toward one or the other-the main drive of those leaning toward the Americans was in reaction to the capital stranglehold exercised by the landed gentry of the Family Compact. Subsequent actions by the American military pretty much turned them against the US and solidified their loyalty to Canada.
 
To split hairs, Upper Canada (Ontario) was settled by British loyalists not Americans per se. Seriously though, there was never, soldiers during the War of 1812 aside, a massive flow of Americans into UC for settlement purposes.

I was going to say something, but Malta Shah sums it up nicely:

And then it was settled by a majority of American immigrants in the period between the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 due to the British policy of appeasement through low taxes in comparison to spiking American taxes and land costs. They were largely apathetic toward the Monarchy or the Republic, a minority of each were interested toward one or the other-the main drive of those leaning toward the Americans was in reaction to the capital stranglehold exercised by the landed gentry of the Family Compact. Subsequent actions by the American military pretty much turned them against the US and solidified their loyalty to Canada.

^^^^ This to a tee.
 
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