Here's the present. I just kinda went wild with it, so don't hold it as gospel. A nation with a color is a major player, a white country is a minor state. I've got a rough idea about the histories of each major state, so feel free to ask.
Alaric sacks Constantinople
- Thread starter DominusNovus
- Start date
Very nice map, Dominus Novus. Thank you for accepting my suggestions (and the inclusion of Eire, Wales and Armorica in the Roman Republic is great!).
Only comments:
a) I would have expected that the Romans would control all of the SW Africa, from Congo to the Cape
b) a bit surprising that the Romans and the Angles do not have a stronger position in East africa, in consideration of India
c) is Australia still undeveloped? or is it independent?
d) another surprise is that both Sumatra and the malay peninsula are independent
Great stuff! When will you feel like telling me a bit of the History of TTL ?
Only comments:
a) I would have expected that the Romans would control all of the SW Africa, from Congo to the Cape
b) a bit surprising that the Romans and the Angles do not have a stronger position in East africa, in consideration of India
c) is Australia still undeveloped? or is it independent?
d) another surprise is that both Sumatra and the malay peninsula are independent
Great stuff! When will you feel like telling me a bit of the History of TTL ?
Remember, that many of the states represented there might, at some point, have been colonized by one of the european powers. So, at some time, the Romans might indeed have controlled much more of Africa. Australia is an independent state, formerly settled by some european power (haven't decided wich though).LordKalvan said:
LordKalvan said:
I'll just run through some random stuff:
The UHR was formed from former Anglish colonies, who resented their second class status, compared to Britain. This resentment was exacerbated by the much better states Roman colonists had.
The Roman Republic is the world's strongest power (followed closely by the UHR, Germania, and Angland). It has lost the fewest colonies (only Argentina and, technically, Brazil, but that was to another power, which then lost it to revolution) of all the colonial powers, as citizenship is relatively easy to acquire (anyone born in the Republic Proper is a citizen, and any colony of a certain size is considered to be part of the Republic Proper).
Angland is similar to OTL's England, with more Celtic and Roman influences. This is due to the Franks being called as mercenaries in the chaos following the Roman withdrawal, rather than the Saxons. The Franks were more accepting of the locals than the Saxons appear to have been. So, noone in this time speaks of an Anglosaxon culture, but rather of a Anglofrankish culture.
With more Germanic tribes heading into Pannonia, the region became Germanized, so, when the Germans finally united, it was a matter of course that Pannonia would be part of their state.
Getland is just like Sweden, except the Geats dominated the early history, instead of the Swedes. Why not?
Gothica is a shadow of its former glory, when it controlled a large colonial empire. When Egypt (and therefore, the Suez canal) broke free from their influence (and fell directly into Roman, Anglish, and Hunnian influence), Gothica lost its main connection to its colonies (go through Roman controlled Suez, or Roman controlled Gibraltar...), and many withered on the vine, or declared independence. However, Gothica has managed to regain the canal and is putting all its energies into rebuilding its empire.
The Turkans are, of course, the Turks, who ended up in Russia, kicking most of the slavs in the region out. The slavic states are those batch of indpendent states between Turka, Getland, and Germania.
The Mongols, obviously, did better. Probably heavily sinocized though.
China is, well, China.
Other states of interest: It would appear that Afganistan has spread into Persia and Pakistan fairly well, and Tibet's doing well for itself. Also, Japan has conquered Korea.
A lot of the original states did better than in OTL, and remained in a recognizable form until present (Goth kingdom, Western Roman Empire, Hunnia, Getland - I'm surprised that Getland does not have any North Esperian colonies - maybe they had, and were absorbed by the Hesperian Republic, or they were lost to Hunnia). Looks like history in TTL was not as bloody as in OTL. There were no Dark Ages, so technology should be quite advanced (even if there were possibly less wars - so less competition: I've a feeling that human sciences, including politics, are fairly more advanced and nicer than in OTL). Also the lack of Moslems should avoid a lot of the bloodiest wars: on the Christian sides, the various churches are likely to have multiplied, given the ecumenical thinking of TTL. Another factor which works for better relations between states (ok, I'm sure there has been a lot of blood, but nothing comparable to the darkest parts of OTL)
What happened to Persia? Invasions from Central Asia, I suppose.
What happened to Persia? Invasions from Central Asia, I suppose.
LordKalvan said:
Actually, I figured w/o the Muslims to kindle some interest in classical learning, technology would be a bit behind us. There wouldn't be so much of a dark age, as a really dim dage. The Romans would keep order and, therefore, knowledge alive. The Goths, sitting on a very urban region would also keep alot going. However, with the dark ages not so dark, the renaissance wouldn't be so bright.
And I tried not to have too many states that were really old. The Romans and Goths are probably the only really old ones. Hunnia can trace its origins to the original Hunnic Gaul, much as France can trace its origins to Frankish Gaul. Same goes for Angland. Not the original state, in all likelyhood, but their origins are clear.
DominusNovus said:
On the other hand, there would not be 500 years of Dark Age, so even if the renaissance is not so bright, it will start from quite a higher level. No Moslem to save the old books, on the other hand the Roman empire, the Goths and probably also the Prefecture of Egypt will keep them safe. So there should be more classical literature available than in OTL.
Provided that the Roman Empire stabilizes their defense lines along the mountains (Pyrenees in Spain, and Alps in Italy) and keep a strong fleet, there should not be an excessive drains on resources. The real danger could be a Justinian analogue, throwing money away (and men) to recover Gaul and Illyria. Another risk could be a series of civil wars (but from your map it looks like the Western Empire heartlands - Spain, Italy and North Africa - have been solidly kept until today).
The other huge advantage respect to OTL would be that the Mediterranean would remain a major artery for traffics (in OTL, the Moslem conquests quickly cut the mediterranean in two - not only that, the risk of raids forced most of the population to leave the coasts, and to go to the interior of Europe). I would expect that commerce will never stop in TTL, and that the need of the Romans to have a strong fleet (say strong fleets, the Mediterranean one and the Atlantic one) would quickly fuel commerce along the African coast, and ultimately reach India. Shall we say that the first Roman traders reach India by AD 800? and that the discovery of Esperia is around 1000?
The maritime trade should fuel a scientific revolution (it did in OTL).
Diamond
Banned
I thought the idea behind this thread seemed familiar.
Here's another thread dealing with similar ideas.
Here's another thread dealing with similar ideas.
Since the thread appears to have died, does anyone mind if I incorporate the ideas into my own planned novels? Rafi seems to have done the same with his "Light in the East" TL, but I wanted to get permission.
Matt Quinn said:
Hey, go right ahead. A little nod in the novel is all I ask for. Out of curiosity, what are you thinking of incorporating?
Dominus,
The map, basically, as well as the basic premise (Alaric sacks Constantinople, brings in his ethnic cousins, the Huns end up in France). The actual story will involve some Visigothic fighting monks (the militant compromise between Arianism and Orthodoxy from "Composite TL II") helping hold Jerusalem against an Arab Volkswandring (sp?).
Hmm...perhaps you can be a character?
The map, basically, as well as the basic premise (Alaric sacks Constantinople, brings in his ethnic cousins, the Huns end up in France). The actual story will involve some Visigothic fighting monks (the militant compromise between Arianism and Orthodoxy from "Composite TL II") helping hold Jerusalem against an Arab Volkswandring (sp?).
Hmm...perhaps you can be a character?
Matt Quinn said:
Pope Valentine I, who became a priest after deciding that women weren't worth the bother.
I figure I'll tie in my personal life, if you're tying in the Comp TL.
Really should get back to that.
I'd love to help in any way possible for your story.
It's not a story yet...it'll probably languish in my idea file until I've completed one or more of my "Seven Unfinished Novels" and, years from now, I'll finally get to it.
I'll see the notes, "Be Sure to Dedicate It to Those Who Helped You...Norman, Weapon_M, and DominusNovus" and put in "Dedicated to Norman, Weapon_M, and DominusNovus from www.alternatehistory.com message board. You know who you are." or something to that effect.
I was planning on having you as the native Italian junior member of the band of fighting monks. Of course, thanks to the compromise between the Arians and Catholics, the clergy might not be celibate. Perhaps you set off to join the fighting monks after a catastrophic romantic situation with a short girl?
I'll see the notes, "Be Sure to Dedicate It to Those Who Helped You...Norman, Weapon_M, and DominusNovus" and put in "Dedicated to Norman, Weapon_M, and DominusNovus from www.alternatehistory.com message board. You know who you are." or something to that effect.
I was planning on having you as the native Italian junior member of the band of fighting monks. Of course, thanks to the compromise between the Arians and Catholics, the clergy might not be celibate. Perhaps you set off to join the fighting monks after a catastrophic romantic situation with a short girl?
Matt Quinn said:
Warrior monk. Just about as good. Well, there are different brotherhoods, I would assume, as in OTL. More than likely at least some are celibate. And a few of those might be of the more militant type.
Damned midgets.