Alaric sacks Constantinople

[LordKalvan]

I really think that the problem you're going to have is that by the time the Western Empire fell, the Western legions were comprised of germanic soldiers led by germanic officers.

We can stop the Goths by letting them conquer Greece and Anatolia, we can then have the Vandals and other East Germanic tribes 'follow the money' and join thier linguistic brothers in Greece. We can even keep Italy from falling, along with the Iberian Peninsula, but the Emperor of this area is still (eventually) going to be drawn from the Germanic elements of the army.

The Eastern Empire can't help (it has to contend with the persians, Goths and Arabs, and the celtic peoples of France are by this time thoroughly Romanized. (BTW this was also true in England, modern archeology is now suggesting that the entire island was part of the 'Greater Roman Economic Sphere', which was why they fell so far.)

Is it a real issue if the emperor is of Germanic origin? I believe that what really matters is that he's the "emperor", and not just the king of a German tribe. The real strength of the Romans was there capacity to assimilate peoples of different origin and tradition, and bring them within the fold of the empire, so that in the end they became Romanised.
Another thought: in a situation like this, where the western empire retrenches in defensible areas, I believe that most of Gaul maybe lost (they will try to hold Provence, to ensure a land connection between Italy and Spain, and maybe Brittany and Normandy). The empire could also try to keep a foothold in Britain: not the Thames plain, since it is harder to defend, but possibly Wales. The outcome could be a stronger Celtic flavoring in the mix

 

[DominusNovus]

Is it a real issue if the emperor is of Germanic origin?

Yeah, the Romans were very anal about the legality of stuff. Thats why the Western Emperor was deposed by Odoacer, and Odoacer didn't just declare himself Emperor (or have himself declared such).

 

[Norman]

The empire could also try to keep a foothold in Britain: not the Thames plain, since it is harder to defend, but possibly Wales. The outcome could be a stronger Celtic flavoring in the mix

But by this point Rome had already withdrawn her legions from Britain to protect the heartlands of the empire. (Iberia, Gaul and Italy). Lord Kalvan, there is a great H.Beam Piper quote from the "Cosmic Computer". "Sometimes the Bears win, sometimes the Bulls win, but the Pigs always lose."

If they try to hold on to too much, they will lose it all.

 

[DuQuense]

You had the Sumerians, and Eygptains, Then the Greeks, followed by the Romans. Note that the center keeps moving West. So can we get a Iberian Empire TL to replace the Fallen Roman, Perhaps a General of a Military Town alone the Coast, Manages to Start rebuilding the Legions in 500-600.

 

[Weapon M]

Why "fallen"? Move the Emperor west or southwest as the "barbarians" drive down Italy.....Maybe Sardinia, then Spain. Or.....Carthage?

 

[LordKalvan]

Yeah, the Romans were very anal about the legality of stuff. Thats why the Western Emperor was deposed by Odoacer, and Odoacer didn't just declare himself Emperor (or have himself declared such).

That's true. What I had in mind was not so much new entry (meaning a wandering barbarian orde), but rather legions formed up of Romanised germans proclaiming their commander emperor. That could be possible, and happened quite a few times. Alternatively, you could have a real German (Odoacres style), acting as Master of the Horses, with a nominal emperor remaining on the throne. I would rather avoid the Interregnum, if possible. It is true that what really matters is to avoid the dark centuries: from this perspective, even if the Western empire falls but it is replaced without solution of continuity by a stable and Romanised German kingdom is not a tragedy.

 

[LordKalvan]

But by this point Rome had already withdrawn her legions from Britain to protect the heartlands of the empire. (Iberia, Gaul and Italy). Lord Kalvan, there is a great H.Beam Piper quote from the "Cosmic Computer". "Sometimes the Bears win, sometimes the Bulls win, but the Pigs always lose."

If they try to hold on to too much, they will lose it all.

I suppose that with my name I should not be surprised if someone quotes H. Beam Piper to me
However, the idea of preserving a foothold in Britain is not so "greedy". It does not necessarily mean that the Eagles must fly again in Wales. just that the Wales kinglets recognise the Western Empire as their overlord. If Spain and Armorica remain Roman, it could be possible.

 

[Norman]

I suppose that with my name I should not be surprised if someone quotes H. Beam Piper to me
However, the idea of preserving a foothold in Britain is not so "greedy". It does not necessarily mean that the Eagles must fly again in Wales. just that the Wales kinglets recognise the Western Empire as their overlord. If Spain and Armorica remain Roman, it could be possible.

Hmmm-
It might be possible. Less pressure from the East, power base in Iberia, perhaps somesort of navy left to stitch the whole thimg together. An incredibly charismatic leader with a string of victories who can fall back onto mountain fortresses that prevent barbarian advances into a civilized hinterland.

The celtic princes of wales might be more likely to 'support' him, (at least with words) and maybe a few warriors. Might work.

 

[DominusNovus]

Hmmm-
It might be possible. Less pressure from the East, power base in Iberia, perhaps somesort of navy left to stitch the whole thimg together. An incredibly charismatic leader with a string of victories who can fall back onto mountain fortresses that prevent barbarian advances into a civilized hinterland.

The celtic princes of wales might be more likely to 'support' him, (at least with words) and maybe a few warriors. Might work.

Hey, if you wait long enough, maybe we get Western Belisarius and Justinian analogues, and the west takes back Gaul. Eventually, the Vikings come along, and we get Romanized Normans in Gaul as federates. Then, a William analogue crosses the channel and ends up re-Romanizing England.

 

[Diamond]

Hey, if you wait long enough, maybe we get Western Belisarius and Justinian analogues, and the west takes back Gaul. Eventually, the Vikings come along, and we get Romanized Normans in Gaul as federates. Then, a William analogue crosses the channel and ends up re-Romanizing England.

Or you could do a mirror image of the conflict between the caliphates and Byzantium - the Western Empire in Spain would stand in for Byzantium, and the Vikings (maybe with or without a suitably motivating religion) would take the role of the arab/muslims.

In the year 1453 the capital of the Empire, Toletum, fell to the cannons of King Oleg III of the Holy Kingdom of Scandia...

 

[Norman]

Or you could do a mirror image of the conflict between the caliphates and Byzantium - the Western Empire in Spain would stand in for Byzantium, and the Vikings (maybe with or without a suitably motivating religion) would take the role of the arab/muslims.

In the year 1453 the capital of the Empire, Toletum, fell to the cannons of King Oleg III of the Holy Kingdom of Scandia...

I kind of like the sort of role reversal in this. As a reader to have to twist my brain around the idea of viking beserkers as a force for religious conversion is kind of cool.

You get an empire that is hanging on, when suddenly, the germnic tribes from the North, maybe following some new philosophy or religion, sweep down screaming something like: (Maybe in better German)

"Gibt es kein Got aber Odin, und Ogir ist ihren vorseher"

 

[DominusNovus]

As I was thinking about what to do with the Huns, I remembered that Atilla had designs on Gaul...

So, what do you guys think of a Hunnic Gaul? I think it'll probably end up with the Western Empire inviting the Huns over to help kick out the Franks, and the Huns then, of course, stay. The Empire accepts this, and the Huns rule pretty much as the Goths in Italy did, on behalf of the Emperor.

This potentially helps out the Empire alot, as it means that the only front they really have to worry about is the Alps, so long as the Hunnic king is loyal. Of course, should the Hunnic king decide to expand his realm, the Romans could be well caught off guard.

 

[Norman]

So you get something like this.

Rather than a Hunnish presence in the East, there is one in the West, that seperates the Northern and Western Germans from the Rump of Rome?

The POD could be an Atilla who is a bit of a Romanophile, seeking to emulate and protect what he sees as the glories of the Roman Empire.

But the Leader of Rome (Either the Emperor or the general leading the legions) has enough experience with barabrians not to invite him into Italy, and gives him part of Gaul, where he buffers the Empire against the North.

Unfortunately for the Huns, this is a different type of terrain (Forests and Mountains) and he isn't able to emulate his successes in the East, and begins to rely more and more on his Germanic subject-tribes.

By the time the situation is unraveling for the Huns, the Empire has regained its strength.

You know, it could work and actually makes sense. I still think you're going to have to give up England to the Anglo-Saxons, but the rest ofthe West could hold against the encroaching Germans.

I was able to add a map before the edit window closed. more like this???

 

[Straha]

this might be a perennial rome,ephermal china TL.

 

[DominusNovus]

Unfortunately for the Huns, this is a different type of terrain (Forests and Mountains) and he isn't able to emulate his successes in the East, and begins to rely more and more on his Germanic subject-tribes.

By the time the situation is unraveling for the Huns, the Empire has regained its strength.

You know, it could work and actually makes sense. I still think you're going to have to give up England to the Anglo-Saxons, but the rest ofthe West could hold against the encroaching Germans.

I was able to add a map before the edit window closed. more like this???

I think the Huns could do better than you'd think. In OTL, by the time they tried to conquer Gaul, they had a predominately infantry army anyway.

As for the map, I imagine the Romans holding on to the Alps better (or at least, the coast around Venice/Aquilea), with the Huns in control of more of southern Gaul.

Also, regarding the east, why is the eastern empire extended so far east (past their usual borders)? I'd think they'd actually be pushed back further west, with more of Anatolia in Gothic hands as well.

A thought occured to me. Since the Goths actually have the Eastern Emperor as a puppet, you can't really call the Eastern Empire, the Eastern Empire. I figure, since it was the Praetorian Prefect Rufinus who started this "Empire", they might call it a Prefecture, ruled by, of course, a Prefect "until the Emperor and Constantinople are reclaimed" or some such. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I think "Prefecture of the East" is a cool name for a country.

 

[Norman]

I think the Huns could do better than you'd think. In OTL, by the time they tried to conquer Gaul, they had a predominately infantry army anyway.

As for the map, I imagine the Romans holding on to the Alps better (or at least, the coast around Venice/Aquilea), with the Huns in control of more of southern Gaul.

Also, regarding the east, why is the eastern empire extended so far east (past their usual borders)? I'd think they'd actually be pushed back further west, with more of Anatolia in Gothic hands as well.

A thought occured to me. Since the Goths actually have the Eastern Emperor as a puppet, you can't really call the Eastern Empire, the Eastern Empire. I figure, since it was the Praetorian Prefect Rufinus who started this "Empire", they might call it a Prefecture, ruled by, of course, a Prefect "until the Emperor and Constantinople are reclaimed" or some such. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I think "Prefecture of the East" is a cool name for a country.

I didn't have the huns take over too much because of two reasons, first the areas are being given to them by the emperor; and second, yes they did better on OTL, but that was with a number of subject tribes, many of whom are now with Alaric.

With respect to the boundries of he eastern empire, I included some lands that were part of their homelands up until the huns came into the picture. I think we can reasonable assume that these would be part of Greater Gothland.

I'm not so certain that the Eastern Empire would have remained in the hands of the Goths, I suspect that an enterprising young governor, say of Egypt or Palestine, would in short over reclaim significant parts of the Empire.

All that having been said, I only created the maps as starting places. Easy enough to fix.

 

[LordKalvan]

Hey, if you wait long enough, maybe we get Western Belisarius and Justinian analogues, and the west takes back Gaul. Eventually, the Vikings come along, and we get Romanized Normans in Gaul as federates. Then, a William analogue crosses the channel and ends up re-Romanizing England.

A Belisarius would be always a bonus, but I would rather do without a Justinian. In the end the guy bankrupted OTL Eastern Empire trying to reclaim the lost lands in the West, and throwing an unbelievable amount of money in his pet building programs.
I like the idea of Romanized Normans in Armorica and Brittany (a bit like OTL, but as Empire foederates). I also wonder if the rump Empire could not do something better with its navy (they need a navy in the Western Mediterranean and one in the Gulf of Biscay). From there, I can see some voyages down along the West Africa coast, with trading posts. You could have a Portugal analogue, 700 years earlier and with a much larger population basis. After all, if the Huns play honestly, and the Normans are set in as foederates there are not a lot of difficult borders to defend.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Norman,

I like the map. Good idea bringing the Huns west to keep "the barbarians" divided.

 

[DominusNovus]

From there, I can see some voyages down along the West Africa coast, with trading posts. You could have a Portugal analogue, 700 years earlier and with a much larger population basis. After all, if the Huns play honestly, and the Normans are set in as foederates there are not a lot of difficult borders to defend.

Hmmm, I could see that happening, with better ships, which would come from a larger emphasis on a navy.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and extrapolate this to the present, working on the map now (probably for the ICN). Any suggestions?

 

[LordKalvan]

Hmmm, I could see that happening, with better ships, which would come from a larger emphasis on a navy.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and extrapolate this to the present, working on the map now (probably for the ICN). Any suggestions?

Well, the classic one: the Western Roman Empire discovers America (with a suitable name, maybe Hesperia) around year 1000. By this time they have had a chance to consolidate, and their ships are better and better. New Rome has been trading all along the Western Africa, they have established a colony and trading post in South Africa (Australia?) and they are trading with India. You could have some ships blown by a storm from WA to OTL Brazil. In a hundred years, there would be 3 European groups trading with North Hesperia: the Vikings in the North, the Celts from Ireland and Armorica (these last ones would be a mix of Celts and Vikings) and the Romans.
It opens the way to unlimited possibilities.
Forgot to add: in the Indian trade, there is a strong competition between the West Roman Empire and the Egyptian Dominate (did you call it that way?