Alaric sacks Constantinople

[MerryPrankster]

The Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Visigoths might very well get at loggerheads with Persia. You might have a three-way-power struggle between the East Roman Empire (Egypt), Sassanid Persia, and the Gothic Empire.

Syria (south of Gothic Asia Minor and north of the Roman Levant and Persian Mesopotamia) could be the chief bone of contention between the three powers.

 

[MerryPrankster]

One more thing...

I was toying with the notion of writing a story set in this TL and figured that the "big event" driving the story could be an Arab equivalent of the Volksvandring (sp?)--if Mohammed is butterflied away, the various Arab tribes could migrate into new areas Visigoth-style on their own rather than behind one leader (or, since the "explosion" didn't occur until after Mohammed's death, group of leaders).

 

[Diamond]

Assuming the Western Empire holds on for at least a while longer, maybe there is some movement to re-unite the East and West? Isn't one of the major reasons they split in the first place because the territory was simply too much for one man/bureaucracy to rule? They don't have that problem now... OTOH, the cultures may simply be too dissimilar by this point to re-unite.

 

[DominusNovus]

Hmmmm, Arab migrations....

Well, the Romans of OTL managed to play many of the germanic tribes against each other for awhile. So...

Alaric takes Constantinople, sets up a puppet emperor, or just leaves Arcadius in place, as he was effectively a puppet anyway. Then, someone sets himself up as the legit eastern emperor, based in Alexandria. Or, maybe the Imperial court flees and Arcadius is set up there. Or, they flee to the West, and whats left of the Eastern Empire is reunited with the west. This is quite possible, since the emperors (Arcadius and Honorius) were brothers and their father Theodosius ruled the empire as one unit.

The Ostrogoths and Visigoths get together under Alaric, begin to solidify their hold on Anatolia and Thrace. The Vandals join in, settling mainly in Greece.

We've got the Salian Franks in northeastern Gaul, the Alamanni, Burgundians, and Ripuarian Franks just beyond the border, and the Saxons and Lombards in northern Germany at the moment. Now, the Franks are likely not gonna head east, but stay around in Gaul. The Alamanni and Burgundians are a bit tougher to judge. It'll probably be better for the west if they stick around, as some clever general (ala Aetius or Stilicho) could use them against the Franks.

Does this sound good so far guys?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Dominus,

Sounds cool thus far.

Now, what year is all this? The Goths were active in the Balkans (Adrianople, 378 AD), long before Alaric's time.

What could push Alaric to attack Constantinople instead of Rome? We have the Arian-slave-rebellion scenario enabling them to get through Constantinople's defenses with a minimum of damage, but communications in those days were slow, so I don't think Alaric would hear of this revolt and arrive in time to help it triumph.

What do you know about the Ripaurian Franks? I'm working on a King Arthur story (a "historical Arthur" one set in 495 AD or so), but I've got the Frenchified names (Guinevere, Lancelot). I read on Wikipedia that a bunch of Ripaurian Franks invaded Britain along with the Saxons, so the names could come from cultural mixing with them. Any info you could provide would be cool.

 

[DominusNovus]

Now, what year is all this? The Goths were active in the Balkans (Adrianople, 378 AD), long before Alaric's time.

What could push Alaric to attack Constantinople instead of Rome? We have the Arian-slave-rebellion scenario enabling them to get through Constantinople's defenses with a minimum of damage, but communications in those days were slow, so I don't think Alaric would hear of this revolt and arrive in time to help it triumph.

Well, Alaric marched on Constantinople in 395, the date I picked for the POD, and, unable to take the city, decided to attack Greece instead.

Hmmm, how about this for specifics:

Alaric advances on Constantinople. Upon seeing the fortifications, he knows that he cannot take the city by force. Luckily for him, somebody on the inside lets him in. We'll never know who this was, as every faction in the city accused their enemies of the deed, so there exists no unbiased account of the event.

So, with the fortifications bypassed, the Visigothic army takes the city easily. Alaric then turns Arcadius into his puppet, not too hard to do. Arcadius was basicly controlled by Rufinus, his guardian and the Preatorian Prefect. Luckily for us, Rufinus didn't happen to be in Constantinople around this time. Which means he escapes capture and certain death. Which means he can rally Roman opposition to the Visigoths. Oh, and did I mention that he and Stilicho (his western counterpart) hated each other with a passion? Heh, this is good stuff.

So, Alaric then invites every Germanic tribesman willing to prove his loyality to the eastern empire, as federates. They readily take him up on his offer, since they trust him, a fellow barbarian, more than the Romans. Can you say Volkswandering -whatever the german word for east is- ?

What do you know about the Ripaurian Franks?

Sadly, I don't know a heck of alot about them in particular. Besides, all those barbarians all look the same to me...

 

[Norman]

One more thing...

I was toying with the notion of writing a story set in this TL and figured that the "big event" driving the story could be an Arab equivalent of the Volksvandring (sp?)--if Mohammed is butterflied away, the various Arab tribes could migrate into new areas Visigoth-style on their own rather than behind one leader (or, since the "explosion" didn't occur until after Mohammed's death, group of leaders).

Since Mohammed isn't active OTL until 570, and did not acively preach until 610, we should be able to butterfly him away.

So the question then is what can get the Arabs moving? I don't know if we have to do anything, they were probably going to move anyway, with or with Mohammed, his religion just happened to coincide.

 

[Norman]

Well, Alaric marched on Constantinople in 395, the date I picked for the POD, and, unable to take the city, decided to attack Greece instead.

Hmmm, how about this for specifics:

Alaric advances on Constantinople. Upon seeing the fortifications, he knows that he cannot take the city by force. Luckily for him, somebody on the inside lets him in. We'll never know who this was, as every faction in the city accused their enemies of the deed, so there exists no unbiased account of the event.

So, with the fortifications bypassed, the Visigothic army takes the city easily. Alaric then turns Arcadius into his puppet, not too hard to do. Arcadius was basicly controlled by Rufinus, his guardian and the Preatorian Prefect. Luckily for us, Rufinus didn't happen to be in Constantinople around this time. Which means he escapes capture and certain death. Which means he can rally Roman opposition to the Visigoths. Oh, and did I mention that he and Stilicho (his western counterpart) hated each other with a passion? Heh, this is good stuff.

So, Alaric then invites every Germanic tribesman willing to prove his loyality to the eastern empire, as federates. They readily take him up on his offer, since they trust him, a fellow barbarian, more than the Romans. Can you say Volkswandering -whatever the german word for east is- ?


Sadly, I don't know a heck of alot about them in particular. Besides, all those barbarians all look the same to me...

Frpm everything I can find (which is admitedly not much) the Riparian Franks were those that lived along the rivers (hence the name), while other franks lived along the sea. I suspect that little differentiated them from the other franks other than the fact they lived where they did.

 

[DominusNovus]

Since Mohammed isn't active OTL until 570, and did not acively preach until 610, we should be able to butterfly him away.

So the question then is what can get the Arabs moving? I don't know if we have to do anything, they were probably going to move anyway, with or with Mohammed, his religion just happened to coincide.

The Eastern Empire could very well hire Arabs to help fight against the Germanic tribes invading them, much in the same way that the Germanic tribes were hired. And, as we know with our hindsight, these federated Arabs will probably just stay around and invite more over, resulting in a slow and steady flow of arabs, rather than the Islamic deluge.

The result would likely be that the Arabs won't culturally dominate the region so totally, and will assimilate into the populace much as the Franks, Lombards, and Goths did in OTL.

 

[Norman]

The Eastern Empire could very well hire Arabs to help fight against the Germanic tribes invading them, much in the same way that the Germanic tribes were hired. And, as we know with our hindsight, these federated Arabs will probably just stay around and invite more over, resulting in a slow and steady flow of arabs, rather than the Islamic deluge.

The result would likely be that the Arabs won't culturally dominate the region so totally, and will assimilate into the populace much as the Franks, Lombards, and Goths did in OTL.

This is a very great idea! It makes sense, it is within the Roman 'thought sphere', and it actually supports many of the goals I sense we are working toward. The Eastern Empire (Struggling on in Alexandria or some such place) hires various Arab tribes to help them, first against the expansion of the Germans (Goth, Vandal, Lombards) out of Greece and Anatolia, then against the expansion of the Persians. You end up (eventually) with a Romano-Arab-Egyptian synthesis.

Maybe they then 'lend out their arab legions to the struggling west, helping it hold Iberian Peninsula.

Great possibilities!!

 

[Norman]

Possible map - up for comment

Here's a possible map - open for comment.

 

[Weapon M]

Looks great. What about.....instead of Arab tribes migrating out of Arabia, could we see Greek refugees fleeing the Goths migrating into Arabia, or into the Western Empire?

And what is the religion of Numidia at this time?

 

[Norman]

Looks great. What about.....instead of Arab tribes migrating out of Arabia, could we see Greek refugees fleeing the Goths migrating into Arabia, or into the Western Empire?

And what is the religion of Numidia at this time?

I don't think greek refugees would go to the west, still too many problems. I suspect they would either resettle in modern day lebenon and Israel or in Egypt where there are already significant Greek and Roman populations.

I just through the country of numidia into the mix, I'm not even certain of the name. The religion would probably be COptic Christianity / Animistic / Pagan.

 

[Diamond]

A thought on Persia:

With two fairly strong neighbors to the west (Goths and relocated Eastern Empire), and at the same time, no Arab threat, might we see Persia's influence spreading farther and farther east? A partial or fully Persian India?

 

[Norman]

A thought on Persia:

With two fairly strong neighbors to the west (Goths and relocated Eastern Empire), and at the same time, no Arab threat, might we see Persia's influence spreading farther and farther east? A partial or fully Persian India?

yOu know that is exactly how I saw it happening too. With strong neighbors to the West, the Persians move to the East. It would make sense, and the 2000 years ago the languages and customs would be closer.

 

[DominusNovus]

An interesting map, but I'm thinking of taking a slightly different course with this.

The little digression we had about the ripuarian franks and king arthur just inspired me. I've been grasping for a way to keep Gaul mostly Roman. I think I've got it. Honorius, the western emperor at the time, had pulled out of Britannia (in response to Alaric's campaigns in Italy), telling the locals to defend for themselves.

So, due to some pressing military matter, similar to Alaric in Italy, Honorius pulls out of Britannia, but still leaves a token force there. To augment this force, he offers to settle many of the Franks (we'll say the Ripurian Franks, since the Salian Franks are already settled in the Empire, and probably won't feel like moving) as federates in Britannia. Blam, we just diverted half the frankish state out of Gaul.

 

[Weapon M]

I'm looking at the Goths and other Germans trying to knock the Huns out of the area...or convert them.

 

[Norman]

An interesting map, but I'm thinking of taking a slightly different course with this.

The little digression we had about the ripuarian franks and king arthur just inspired me. I've been grasping for a way to keep Gaul mostly Roman. I think I've got it. Honorius, the western emperor at the time, had pulled out of Britannia (in response to Alaric's campaigns in Italy), telling the locals to defend for themselves.

So, due to some pressing military matter, similar to Alaric in Italy, Honorius pulls out of Britannia, but still leaves a token force there. To augment this force, he offers to settle many of the Franks (we'll say the Ripurian Franks, since the Salian Franks are already settled in the Empire, and probably won't feel like moving) as federates in Britannia. Blam, we just diverted half the frankish state out of Gaul.

I don't think that a Roman commander of France is going to be able to keep the Franks out of Gual, hell, most of his troops by this time are Germanic tribesmen. What he may be able to do is 'ride the tiger', somehow take command of some of the incredible fractious tribes and forge a different solution.

Problem is, if he's got any kind of army, it is going to get called in by the Emperor when he needs it. So if the Emperor relocates to the Iberian Peninsula, he's going to pull the legions with him, and those incredubly defensible mountains are just too good of a border.

Best I can see is something like the map below, loss of Northern Gaul to the Franks but retention of Southern Gaul in combination with the Iberian Peninsula, but eventually, the Western Empire will lose Gaul unless they have more troops, but where are they going to get them, from the Franks???

ANyway, try this map.

 

[DominusNovus]

I don't think that a Roman commander of France is going to be able to keep the Franks out of Gual, hell, most of his troops by this time are Germanic tribesmen. What he may be able to do is 'ride the tiger', somehow take command of some of the incredible fractious tribes and forge a different solution.

Problem is, if he's got any kind of army, it is going to get called in by the Emperor when he needs it. So if the Emperor relocates to the Iberian Peninsula, he's going to pull the legions with him, and those incredubly defensible mountains are just too good of a border.

Best I can see is something like the map below, loss of Northern Gaul to the Franks but retention of Southern Gaul in combination with the Iberian Peninsula, but eventually, the Western Empire will lose Gaul unless they have more troops, but where are they going to get them, from the Franks???

ANyway, try this map.

Looks good, though I actually think they'd lose more of Gaul right away (the areas you have under Frankish control on the map were Frankish territory de facto anyway) and less of Italy. I think the West could probably hold onto Italy, Spain, and North Africa, with holdouts in Gaul (Brittany, maybe). Iberia would prove a good heartland for the Empire though, now that you mention it.

As for more troops to defend Gaul (or the empire in general), there're plenty of other tribes to play against the Franks and each other. You've got the Angles, Saxons, Lombards, maybe the Burgundians, Suebi, and Alamanni. Let them duke it out in Gaul, while the Romans hold the Alps and Pyrennes, recuperating, then start picking them off (thats the optimistic scenario).

 

[Norman]

Arthur in France

I really think that the problem you're going to have is that by the time the Western Empire fell, the Western legions were comprised of germanic soldiers led by germanic officers.

We can stop the Goths by letting them conquer Greece and Anatolia, we can then have the Vandals and other East Germanic tribes 'follow the money' and join thier linguistic brothers in Greece. We can even keep Italy from falling, along with the Iberian Peninsula, but the Emperor of this area is still (eventually) going to be drawn from the Germanic elements of the army.

The Eastern Empire can't help (it has to contend with the persians, Goths and Arabs, and the celtic peoples of France are by this time thoroughly Romanized. (BTW this was also true in England, modern archeology is now suggesting that the entire island was part of the 'Greater Roman Economic Sphere', which was why they fell so far.)