Alaric sacks Constantinople

[MerryPrankster]

If Egypt is the center of the Eastern Empire, what will we do with Monophysitism (assuming it comes around in this TL)? Byzantium was dominated by Greek-speaking Orthodox Christians who liked to abused Monophysite Christians (thus leading them to colloborate with the Islamic invaders), but with Greece and much of Asia Minor gone, they really can't do this.

Perhaps we can come up with a situation where Monophysitism is co-opted into the "official church." In Diamond's "New Carthaginian Empire" thread, we did the same with Donatism--when the Emperor moved to North Africa, there was a compromise made with the Donatists.

There's also the Isis cult, which was shut down by the Emperor Justinian. However, without the dominance of the Orthodox Church (numerically and politically), they might stick around for awhile.

In the future of TTL, might this become an "Egyptian Empire" (much as the Eastern Roman Empire of OTL was the "Byzantine Empire")?

Also, where would the capital be? I don't think there's any place in Egypt as defensible as Constantinople; might some new city be built for the purpose, or will the Emperors simply pick a big city like Alexandria and set up shop there?

 

[Weapon M]

Why not Jerusalem?

 

[Norman]

I really like the direction Matt is taking this, and I also like the idea implicit in Jeruselum as a center. So let me throw some more ideas into the stew.

If we have the Goths and Vandals (closely related tribes) move into I like the idea of religious fusion. We can begin the transformation of the goths to a warrior culture helping the downtrodden through the following:

First the reason why they come to Constantinople is to protect a Christian religious minority, such as the arian community of the empire.

Second, we move the political center of the empire to Egypt, but the religious center to Jeruselum. This results in a less dogmatic religious center to the Christian church.

Third, Islam is butterflied away, but the religion that evolves into OTL Coptic Church can be present.

Thus, you now have three religious centers, Rome, Jeruselum and Alexandria, with Constantinople being more of a crossroad of religion that a center in its own right. As a result, the Goths develop a tradition of 'keeping the peace' between religions.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Norman,

Thank you for the compliments.

The idea of Jerusalem being the chief ecclesiastical center and Alexandria being the political capital is a good idea. Norman's elaboration of all it is also very interesting.

We could go some interesting places with this.

Thing is, how are the Goths going to take Constantinople? I think the walls had been improved from generic city walls into the "invincible walls of Constantinople" that withstood everything except the Ottoman Turks.

Perhaps some Gothic slaves do let them in...I heard that "barbarian slaves" opened the gates of Rome itself to one of the Germanic tribes, leading to the first sack of Rome. John's idea of bickering political factions also works...the Byzantines of OTL got in trouble by doing this (just after Manzikert, 1204, Cantacuzene inviting the Ottomans in, etc).

 

[Weapon M]

Thus, you now have three religious centers, Rome, Jeruselum and Alexandria, with Constantinople being more of a crossroad of religion that a center in its own right. As a result, the Goths develop a tradition of 'keeping the peace' between religions.

So the Eastern Emperor will be in Alexandria, but will recognize The Patriarch of Jerusalem as the "First among equals"? Where does this leave the Patriarch of Alexandria, or even The Patriarch of Antioch? Will the Archbishop of Constantinople fit into any of this, or will he just be a Goth puppet?

 

[Norman]

So the Eastern Emperor will be in Alexandria, but will recognize The Patriarch of Jerusalem as the "First among equals"? Where does this leave the Patriarch of Alexandria, or even The Patriarch of Antioch? Will the Archbishop of Constantinople fit into any of this, or will he just be a Goth puppet?

I think you get Christianity as a more decentralized entity, each major cultural center has a patriarch, but no patriarch is really more important than another, at least early on. Then, if power becomes centralized, the rulers attempt to grab religious power.

Because religious power is decentralized, you get a very different spread of christianity, as religoius leaders of different stripes lead their followers off. For example, Mohammet (in this world) would find it easy to graft his ideas onto a christian church, because there are so many competing types.

 

[Weapon M]

Ah yes, Mohammet, Archbishop of Jerusalem.....

"There is one God but Jehovah, and Jesus is his Son."

 

[Norman]

Ah yes, Mohammet, Archbishop of Jerusalem.....

"There is one God but Jehovah, and Jesus is his Son."

I seem to recall he shook up the church, but his successors squabbled between themselves until the Patriarch of Antioch stepped in to resolve the matter.

But I thought he was first Patriarch of Mecca. Oh well, goes to show what a failing memory can do.

 

[fortyseven]

Most of Mohammed's teachings were basically the same as Jesus's teachings. In this atl, what effect would these various Christian churches especially the Mohammed influenced one(s) have on Western Christianity?

 

[Diamond]

Here's another thought:

What happens with Sassanid Persia? Without their traditional and longstanding enmity with Byzantium, do the Goths step in to fill the void there, or do the Eastern Romans (now in Egypt) and the Persians simply battle throughout the Arabian peninsula?

Perhaps Persia will attempt to play Gothic Greece and Roman Egypt off against each other, thereby consolidating their own power base.

 

[Norman]

Goth Slave rebellion

I like Matt's idea of a slave rebellion, maybe the slaves have a different religion than the Orthodox oriented greeks, and they cooperate with the Goth by opening the gates.

Say that the slaves become Arian but rather than using a regular bible, they use Wilfinga's gothic bible. (Possible because many of the slaves are goths and East Germanic speaking people.)

This starts a Gothic 'folk-mythos' of the Goths as rescuers of the religiously oppressed.

Perhaps the remaining roman legions (only those in the area) meld with the Goths when the Huns attack, forcing the huns to attack the Western Empire.

 

[cow defender]

So with more competing xn religions in this tl there will probably not be the same religious persecution as in our tl, right? The Goths may never get overthrown (w/ them not being seen as heathen overseers) and can remain a militant aristocracy. Hmm...it'd be cool to see some fighting gothic monks...

 

[Weapon M]

So, if Arianism isn't wiped out, then it's okay to be some other type of Christian? Without the various sects/factions/heresies fighting amongst each other, do we see more cooperation between Christians? As in "sure, they're flaky, but they ARE our brothers in Christ? Say! Let's go beat up the pagan Persians/Saxons/whomever...."

And let's not forget to say our "Atta Unsar."......

 

[MerryPrankster]

Weapon_M,

It depends on how Arianism evolves. The God-created-Jesus-and-they-created-the-Holy-Spirit-all-3-are-worthy-of-worship smacks of polytheism. If it becomes more orthodox, accepting the main view of the Trinity but retaining Arius's disdain for State interference, the other Christian groups will probably be more accepting.

Perhaps they get better translators and the Nestorian controversy doesn't arise (according to some Assyrian literature I've read, Nestorious himself never preached that Christ had two personalities--God the Son not dying on the cross and all that--it was all the result of a translation glitch between the Syriac-speaking Nestorians and the Greco-Latinate other folks).

 

[Norman]

Do we get a less religious centered meditterraean?

Also consider, with a strong presence of germanic tribes in the East, as well as the west and North (I have seen no reason to believe that the Western Empire won't fall, only that Alaric won't kill it) do we lose the East Europe / West Europe dicotomy that seems to be present in most history?

 

[Weapon M]

Eventually, maybe, Charlemagne's empire reaches down into Italy - what about the Lombards? Vandals in Spain and North Africa, Goths in the Balkans and Anatolia, "Alexandrines" in Egypt and Middle East....Were the Vandals aslo Arians?

 

[Norman]

Eventually, maybe, Charlemagne's empire reaches down into Italy - what about the Lombards? Vandals in Spain and North Africa, Goths in the Balkans and Anatolia, "Alexandrines" in Egypt and Middle East....Were the Vandals aslo Arians?

It is my understanding the Vandals were Arian and also very closely related to the Goths, i.e. they spoke an East Germanic language probably mutually intelligible with the Goths. AS a result, they stay were the money is, and help out the Goths, rather than get pushed West, they stay or return to the East.

I think the Lombards were too, but I am less certain here.

I think that the Franks, without having to contend with the Visigoths in Southern France, basically take all of France over fairly quickly, I am less sure of Spain. A Charlesmagne type Frankish Empire would be established, if only to fill the power vacuum left by the inevitable collapse of the West, particularly if the Huns hit it.

Maybe we get "Hungary" further west, (say in Austria?), a more Frankish, Frankish Kingdom (fewer Franks die fighting Goths); a more Arian East, and the rump of the West Empire in Spain and North Africa. I think that Britan falls to the Angles and the Saxons, and that the Viking raids happen as per OTL.

 

[DominusNovus]

Anybody willing to ponder the possibility that the western empire manages to hold on for a bit, and that the other barbarians head east, as its already suffered such a severe blow?

 

[MerryPrankster]

If the Visigoths, Ostrogoths (ditching the Huns and heading for very defensible Constantinople), and Vandals end up in Greece, Asia Minor, and the southern Balkans, where will the other barbarians go?

Norman seems to have a good idea with the Franks--with no war in southern France with the Visigoths, the Franks will be able to seize control over the entire area more quickly and with fewer casualties.

Now how do we work the Lombards in? I've played with the scenario a bit in my notes and I thought that perhaps a Lombard-unified Italy would be nice. However, that's one of my personal interests (like John's predilection for Ottoman zepplins) and might not be realistic.

How did Lombard expansion go historically? They came later, after the Ostrogoths in Italy were defeated by Justinian, so I figured they might come in earlier once the Huns are beaten and the Ostrogoths, being in the East, aren't in the way anymore.

By the way, the Lombards were Arian, but converted to orthodox Christianity (it's usually called "Catholicism" in the histories) sometime later on.

 

[Norman]

Anybody willing to ponder the possibility that the western empire manages to hold on for a bit, and that the other barbarians head east, as its already suffered such a severe blow?

I actually like the idea of the Western Empire hanging on, but maybe relocated to the Iberian Pennisula, associated bits of North Africa, the tip of the Italian boot, and Sicily.

I think that North Italy was gone, just too much temptation for some group, and the Romans were just too weak.

I put a rough map together on this, but I'm on the raod today, so I can't forward it. The other thing is you have the 'barbarians' (Goths, Vandals, what have you) in Greece and Asia minor, Persia stretched into the Tigris euphratis; a Romano-Egyptian Empire consisting of the Eastern parts of North Africa, parts of the Arabian Peninsula, and along the Red Sea. The Franks would control OTL France, and 'Hungary' would be located about where it is, but maybe slightly elomgated.

Thoughts???