Al-Andalus Survives

[Goldstein]

Could the slowness of the Reconquista be more due to the need to breed enough extra Christians to populate the newly-conquered territories (because Christians could be converted to Islam, but Muslims couldn't be converted to Christianity)?

Yes, it could have had something to do, but it wasn't the only reason, and personally I think it wasn't the main reason. That kingdoms were tributary states to the Caliphate when it was at its height, and the Caliphate's military superiority was clear then.

I guess that my point is that the reconquista was not the reason of the fall of al-andalus, but the fall of al-andalus ignited the reconquista. And that, as Rome, it was already suffering from inside when it began to lose territories.

 

[Tocomocho]

As has been said, it's not neccessary to have the Caliphate ruling the entire Peninsula. Up to the year 1000, the Christian kingdoms were just a boxer punch to hit and loot when the Caliph was bored. After Almanzor's death (who threw the Caliphate in bankruptcy due to this, as Dthntze said) it became the other way.

Crusades aren't a problem. There was never a proper crusade in Spain, entirely formed by knights from England, France or Gemany. The Pope just endorsed the campaigns already going there and gave his bless to anyone willing to fight there. But nobody really messed with a strong Iberian Caliphate. What would they win doing that? Even Charlemagne in the late 8th century, when he failed to take Saragossa he simply left it unmolested and made good relations with the Muslims. The Cordoban Caliphate is strong, but not expansionistic (in the north) nor a real threat to the Western Christendom anymore. There is no real reason to attack it from outside.

This though, doesn't mean the Cordoban Caliphate cannot play a role in European politics in the future. Realpolitik is older than people use to think. If the never growing northern Iberian Kingdoms fall under French influence, I expect the Caliphate to cooperate with England in some way. At the same time, the Ummayads are going to be in bad relations with the Ottomans or whoever takes their place, as both claim to be the true Caliphate.

By the way, would there be a chance for the Caliphate of Cordoba to retain or gain some parts of Northwest Africa?

Northern Morocco up to the city of Fez was usually part of the Cordoban Caliphate. It's likely to see the Ummayads as enemies of the Almoravids if the Caliphate doesn't dissolve in 1031 like in OTL, instead of allies. I suppose the Ummayads would conquer the Atlas after receiving gunpowder weapons like the Turks conquered the Middle East (among the reasons: more population, more fertile lands, more food and riches in general, more military and strategic innovations due to centuries of wars against Europeans, etc, like the Turks).

NOTE: I assume the Christian/Muslim border never falls under the Douro or as maximum the Guadarrama mountains. Otherwise it is probably too weakened to resist continuous pressure.

 

[htgriffin]

Best chance of this would be the Basques (and perhaps the other Austurian states) converting. The Arabs and Berbers are not likely to push thier way into these marginal fringes in the face of any opposition.

Otherwise? The overall culture of the Tai'fa states influence thier Christian counterparts, and they ally against Berber and Frankish outsiders instead of employing (and beign radicalized) by them.

HTG

 

[perfectgeneral]

POD: Abd al-Malik (al-Muzaffar-the Victor) does not die from poison in 1008 AD. The Christians are driven past the Pyrenees (oh yes). North Africa up to the Sinai Desert falls under the sway of Al-Andulus and the Caliph of Cordoba. Cordoba is the largest city in the world. Movable type printing presses are developed, gunpowder discovered, Toledo steel made, etc. The only way out of Europe is to be a citizen of the Empire of Al-Andulus. They go on to discover and claim the americas (Empire of Al-Cordobia) and their mighty navy (and later airforce too) rules the world in religous tolerance and scholastic enlightenment.

2008: The world is largely secular, but with a deep respect for the religous freedoms of the minority faiths. The Sultans and Caliphs of the world meet in the busy port of Qahdiz in Cordoba to address 'international' issues as Dominions of the Grand Emperor of Al-Andulus and Cordobia, Ruler of the World, Overseer of the Planets, Guardian of Humanity. Cordoba has grown to engulf Seville and Cadiz.

 

[Condottiero]

Could the slowness of the Reconquista be more due to the need to breed enough extra Christians to populate the newly-conquered territories (because Christians could be converted to Islam, but Muslims couldn't be converted to Christianity)?

Bingo! At least one reasonable idea!

Someone said that the christian kingdoms of the north were overestimated. In fact I think that you are overestimating the islamic territory of the south. The conversion of the local population to islam was slow and it was not massive. In fact it was not until the X century that the majority of the population was islamic. There was even a christian rebelion that forced the emir to convert to christianism in order to save his neck. However order and economic prosperity made the christians of the "islamic" south to prefer living there than among the christians of the north. Then we had a more aggresive policy towards christians in the south from the X century trying to force their conversion and at the same time a powerful army allowed to attack the christian kingdoms of the north who had advanced just to occupy a few lands and leaving a sort of population desert in the Duero valley: they were unable to occupy lands that were left as a defensive buffer by the califate due to a lack of population! That aggresive policy forced the christian population of the south to flee to the north, changing the tide. Now the christian north had enough population to push south. Add to the cocktail the "creation" of St. James peregrination with lots of french and northeuropean colonists, increasing the population and the prosperity of the north. On the meantime the islamic south suffered from the divisions caused by the dictatorship of Al-Mansur and from attacks from Africa. The islamic south was already doomed.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

In order to survive, the conflict between Arabs and Berbers must be resolved. This was a problem for the Muslim state in the Iberian peninsula, almost from the very beginning. The entire area would need to be conquered, up to the Pyrenees. Without any hope of reconquest, I see more conversions to Islam among the local Christian population. The remainder would perhaps become a very small minority, like the Copts in Egypt.

Nah, if the northern Christian Kingdoms remained weak and poor there's no need to for Muslims to conquer them. Anyways, who really want to climb up these damned mountains just to beat the crap out of some insignificant barbarians.

 

[rcduggan]

... (Empire of Al-Cordobia)...

I burst out laughing when I saw that. Sorry, it's just really funny. The mix of English, Arabic, and then a Latin suffix is funny but nonsensical. Actually, the only Arabic is "Al-" because Cordoba is English.

That makes about as much sense as calling Napoleon's state the Empire of La Francia. The Caliphate of Cordoba would be something more like Khilafa al-Qurtuba.

The rest of the post is a bit wank-y and implausible, unfortunately. Although I do like the idea of Cordoba dominating the world, it would not happen that easily. Plus the Moors would have little incentive to explore west, as long as they have access to the Red Sea. And since you specifically say that they do, the can trade as much as they want that way and no incentive to find alternative routes. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.