Airborne Regiment not disbanded...

MacCaulay

Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Airborne_Regiment


Okay...I'm going to make an assumption: that most folks who click on this know that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded in the mid-90s, and why. Suffice it to say that Somalia didn't just take a few Blackhawks down, it killed an entire Regiment of Airborne as well.

So let's suppose that the Regiment, instead of being completely disbanded after Belet Huen, was subjected to extreme disciplinary measures: the kind that even it's ex-commanding officer was in favour of. Carol Mathieu and Serge Labbe are brought up on charges and cashiered, as are multiple NCOs.

In the Rwanda operation, a scratch unit under the aegis of 1 Commando, but the unit is composed of members of all three in order to bring the unit up to strength.

After that, I'll leave it up to you guys.
 
Are we assuming that the Airborne Regiment is deployed to Rwanda here? And if that is the case, is this under original peacekeeping guises or is this backing up Major General Dallaire and trying to stop the genocide?
 
Well I think like all parts of the Canadian forces, the Airborne Regiment is going to be hit hard by the defense cuts of the 1990's.

I'm a tad confused by your remarks surrounding Rwanda. Are you proposing that the remnants of the Airborne Regiment are renamed the 1 Commando and sent in? Given that you haven't butterflied away Belet Huen I have a hard time seeing the Canadian government signing off on that.

Once the War on Terror starts though, I'd expect these guys to be the first Canadian boots on the ground provided enough of the unit isn't disbanded during the 1990's (Perhaps an earlier start to the WoT?). When the Tories eventually replace the Liberals, I'd also imagine they'd authorize a major expansion in the unit's numbers.
 
Will Airborne survive Jean Chretien? If it does, it might have to be renamed the Airborne Company. :rolleyes: But I could envision a deployment to the Balkans when the time comes, and of course brought up to full strength when the Tories win in 2004 or 2006.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Are we assuming that the Airborne Regiment is deployed to Rwanda here? And if that is the case, is this under original peacekeeping guises or is this backing up Major General Dallaire and trying to stop the genocide?

UNAMIR II, which was the operation that got sent in after everything had already gone to hell. I've got a picture of a Bangledeshi BTR-60, where they had been confronted by a Rwandan force and abandoned the vehicle. So the CAR troops had to go get it back.

The picture is of three troops from the CAR leaning on the side of this BTR looking like they've just conquered Africa or something.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
I'm a tad confused by your remarks surrounding Rwanda. Are you proposing that the remnants of the Airborne Regiment are renamed the 1 Commando and sent in? Given that you haven't butterflied away Belet Huen I have a hard time seeing the Canadian government signing off on that.

The Airborne Regiment isn't made of Companies, it's made of Commandos. It sounds odd, but that's the force structure. It's wasn't operated like any other unit in the history of the Canadian Army.

They're generally heavier in manpower than Companies: Canadian Airborne Forces sine 1942 by Horn and Wycynski lists the paper strength of each commando as 278 each. By the 80s, the Regiment had also acquired a 3 Commando, which as a mechanized infantry unit in Germany as part of 4 Canadian Mechanized Infantry Brigade under US VII Corps.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Why the hell would you abandon a BTR when your opponents are infantry?

Way too many of them for the half-dozen or so of you to handle, maybe?

Well, TheMann came up with a reason. I'm trying to think of a reason that I'd have in Afghanistan to honestly say "there's too many angry people outside this Coyote! We need to jump out and hightail it!" but I can't.

This is going to sound bad, but if I was surrounded by an angry crowd and we couldn't shoot because of Rules of Engagement, then I'd start driving and if I ran over someone it'd be their own damn fault for not getting out of the way of a tank.
Coming from a driver, that's my gut instinct. Put the stupid thing in drive and let fight-or-flight sort it out. If they want to start shooting, then we'll end stop it for them. If they don't want a fight, then they'll get out of our way. If they're too dumb to get out of the way of a moving vehicle then that's their own fault and I won't feel bad.

Will Airborne survive Jean Chretien? If it does, it might have to be renamed the Airborne Company. :rolleyes: But I could envision a deployment to the Balkans when the time comes, and of course brought up to full strength when the Tories win in 2004 or 2006.

They were on the roll to get deployed to Bosnia or Kosovo (I can't remember which) when they got disbanded, so obviously there was some hope that they'd get their act together. I think the Rwanda mission in OTL was a sign that the Army was really hoping putting them in the field in some hotspot would give them some kind of Black Hawk Down moment and they'd get back in peoples' good graces.

hmmm...perhaps the Airborne disbandment gets stuck in bureaucratic wrangling for a bit longer, they get deployed to Bosnia, and a Commando is stuck in the Medak Pocket with 2PPCLI, the Dutch, and the French?
 
Well, TheMann came up with a reason. I'm trying to think of a reason that I'd have in Afghanistan to honestly say "there's too many angry people outside this Coyote! We need to jump out and hightail it!" but I can't.

This is going to sound bad, but if I was surrounded by an angry crowd and we couldn't shoot because of Rules of Engagement, then I'd start driving and if I ran over someone it'd be their own damn fault for not getting out of the way of a tank.
Coming from a driver, that's my gut instinct. Put the stupid thing in drive and let fight-or-flight sort it out. If they want to start shooting, then we'll end stop it for them. If they don't want a fight, then they'll get out of our way. If they're too dumb to get out of the way of a moving vehicle then that's their own fault and I won't feel bad.

Truthfully, MacCaulay, the ROE for the peacekeepers was pretty messed up in Rwanda, and the Hutu militias specifically targeted Western peacekeepers to make sure the Europeans didn't get in and stop it. Ten Belgian peacekeepers were murdered as a result, and that guess proved to be the right one - and a million people, virtually all of them guilty of nothing but being the wrong tribe - lost their lives as a result. Every TL I've ever written involving armed forces in 1994 has a intervention in Rwanda. The worthless animals who stoked those fires and who murdered those people deserve the same spot in Hell that Hitler and the perpetrators of the Holocaust occupy, if you ask me.

hmmm...perhaps the Airborne disbandment gets stuck in bureaucratic wrangling for a bit longer, they get deployed to Bosnia, and a Commando is stuck in the Medak Pocket with 2PPCLI, the Dutch, and the French?

That would probably do the trick, if it became a well-publicized incident. "Canada's Elite Troops Fight Off the Croatian Butchers" as a Sun Media headline would probably in itself do the trick. (I've already got the scenario in my head. The Toronto Sun's Peter Worthington, a former Canadian Army Officer himself, goes over to Yugoslavia and gets caught in the mess. The Croatian Army decides to attempt to shove the peacekeepers out of the way, and the Airborne Regiment, 2nd PPCLI and French armor units are soon under fire from the Croatians. Having dealt with this before, and knowing the genocidal nature of everybody in this mess, the Canadians decide enough is enough and shoot back. This is done with Worthington and a number of other Canadian reporters in the area, who are under fire from the Croatians as well. A few Canadians are killed in the attacks, but the Croatians take much higher losses. The incident goes down as a victorious firefight for the Canadians, and as a result the ROE are changed for the peacekeepers to hold their positions if attacked without provocation.)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Truthfully, MacCaulay, the ROE for the peacekeepers was pretty messed up in Rwanda, and the Hutu militias specifically targeted Western peacekeepers to make sure the Europeans didn't get in and stop it. Ten Belgian peacekeepers were murdered as a result, and that guess proved to be the right one - and a million people, virtually all of them guilty of nothing but being the wrong tribe - lost their lives as a result. Every TL I've ever written involving armed forces in 1994 has a intervention in Rwanda. The worthless animals who stoked those fires and who murdered those people deserve the same spot in Hell that Hitler and the perpetrators of the Holocaust occupy, if you ask me.

What I remember most was the footage of the other Belgian peacekeepers.

After they were killed, they fucking pulled the entire contingent out which robbed UNAMIR of it's trained core and left them with half-trained Africans and central Asian troops, the kind that abandon BTRs in front of mobs.

And here are these Belgians, the former colonial rulers of Rwanda, cutting up UN berets on the fucking tarmac in front of their transports and bitching about how "We didn't want to come here, we didn't want to get involved and this isn't anything we should have anything to do with."

There's so much about that whole thing that was so wrong...it amazes me that Dallaire didn't just come home and shoot himself.



That would probably do the trick, if it became a well-publicized incident. "Canada's Elite Troops Fight Off the Croatian Butchers" as a Sun Media headline would probably in itself do the trick. (I've already got the scenario in my head. The Toronto Sun's Peter Worthington, a former Canadian Army Officer himself, goes over to Yugoslavia and gets caught in the mess. The Croatian Army decides to attempt to shove the peacekeepers out of the way, and the Airborne Regiment, 2nd PPCLI and French armor units are soon under fire from the Croatians. Having dealt with this before, and knowing the genocidal nature of everybody in this mess, the Canadians decide enough is enough and shoot back. This is done with Worthington and a number of other Canadian reporters in the area, who are under fire from the Croatians as well. A few Canadians are killed in the attacks, but the Croatians take much higher losses. The incident goes down as a victorious firefight for the Canadians, and as a result the ROE are changed for the peacekeepers to hold their positions if attacked without provocation.)

I used to have this idea, it was called Seven Days of Fight, where the UN force commander on the ground in Srebrenica basically goes rogue (he kind of did in reality) and defends the Safe Zone.

So a battalion of Dutch, some Canadians, and British SAS backed with some ragtag help from Mountain Troops of the Bosnian Army have to hold the city for seven days while a US armoured division pushes through to open the road.
 
What I remember most was the footage of the other Belgian peacekeepers.

After they were killed, they fucking pulled the entire contingent out which robbed UNAMIR of it's trained core and left them with half-trained Africans and central Asian troops, the kind that abandon BTRs in front of mobs.

And here are these Belgians, the former colonial rulers of Rwanda, cutting up UN berets on the fucking tarmac in front of their transports and bitching about how "We didn't want to come here, we didn't want to get involved and this isn't anything we should have anything to do with."

There's so much about that whole thing that was so wrong...it amazes me that Dallaire didn't just come home and shoot himself.

I hate everything about that mess. The Belgians and those idiotic comments, the hatred of the Hutu militias and the reprisals by the Tutsi militias. Damn it, the only real difference between them is their facial structures and body shapes, the divisions were even instigated by the Belgians. "This isn't anything we should have anything to do with."? Maybe you fuckups ought to think about the fact that the country you represent CAUSED THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Fifty years after Allied soldiers saw Nazi death camps and were truly shocked by them all - and shocking a hardened soldier is a tough job - we let it happen again, and a million people lost their lives as a result. Yet, much smaller problems in the Balkans had thousands of troops there before the fighting had hardly gotten started. Is it any wonder many Africans so dislike the West?

And the most galling thing is, the Belgians have said more than once they wanted to charge Dallaire "over his role in the deaths of the Belgian paratroopers." Even worse, the Belgian Foreign Minister once commented "Dallaire was insulting in his comments and whose cowardice was demonstrated by a lack of responsibility when the situation required leadership on his part." And this is after the supplied weapons to the butchers. If I was in his position and that guy said that to my face, he'd get a few teeth knocked out for it, to hell with the diplomatic consequences. Canada should have called for Belgium to be tossed out of NATO for that.

And to be fair, the Ghanian and Tunisian peacekeepers were praised by Dallaire for being tough, competent peacekeepers.

I used to have this idea, it was called Seven Days of Fight, where the UN force commander on the ground in Srebrenica basically goes rogue (he kind of did in reality) and defends the Safe Zone.

So a battalion of Dutch, some Canadians, and British SAS backed with some ragtag help from Mountain Troops of the Bosnian Army have to hold the city for seven days while a US armoured division pushes through to open the road.

That would kick ass, honestly.

I can see it already - the Dutch Second Infantry Regiment, the Canadian 2nd Battalion of the PPCLI and a company of the Airborne Regiment, along with a squadron of the 22nd Special Air Service, hooks up with the Mountain Troops of the Bosnian Army. They force supplies to be delivered there, and when the Serbs try again, it turns into a big fight. (One problem - the Dutch soldiers were unpleasant fellows, a number of racists among them.)
 

MacCaulay

Banned
That would kick ass, honestly.

I can see it already - the Dutch Second Infantry Regiment, the Canadian 2nd Battalion of the PPCLI and a company of the Airborne Regiment, along with a squadron of the 22nd Special Air Service, hooks up with the Mountain Troops of the Bosnian Army. They force supplies to be delivered there, and when the Serbs try again, it turns into a big fight. (One problem - the Dutch soldiers were unpleasant fellows, a number of racists among them.)

As a writer, all I can say is: "It makes for better drama: not all the douchebags are outside the city."

Which, in my experience, is true. War brings out the best and worst in people, because of the extreme pressures they're under. If anything, the Airborne Regiment was a testament to both of those.
 
Well, TheMann came up with a reason. I'm trying to think of a reason that I'd have in Afghanistan to honestly say "there's too many angry people outside this Coyote! We need to jump out and hightail it!" but I can't.

This is going to sound bad, but if I was surrounded by an angry crowd and we couldn't shoot because of Rules of Engagement, then I'd start driving and if I ran over someone it'd be their own damn fault for not getting out of the way of a tank.

The only answer I can come up with is "My RG-31 is on fire." Of course, if someone is setting my RG-31 on fire, the rest of the platoon should be shooting at them -- definitely meets any ROE criteria out there. I can't think of a situation where I'd have one armored vehicle off by itself playing John Wayne with a crowd.

And about driving over a mob of protesters, what I've always (ie, KFOR, OIF three times, OEF) trained for is that you don't stop, even if you slow down, you never stop in the middle of a crowd of angry people.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The only answer I can come up with is "My RG-31 is on fire." Of course, if someone is setting my RG-31 on fire, the rest of the platoon should be shooting at them -- definitely meets any ROE criteria out there. I can't think of a situation where I'd have one armored vehicle off by itself playing John Wayne with a crowd.

From everything I've read, Rwanda was just a greatest hits of "things you should never do."


And about driving over a mob of protesters, what I've always (ie, KFOR, OIF three times, OEF) trained for is that you don't stop, even if you slow down, you never stop in the middle of a crowd of angry people.

OEF? Where were you?
 
Whoa...wait...what unit? Who with? When did you get there? Holy FUCK! How long have you been lurking? Do you know where I was?

20th EN BN, aka TF Lumberjack. I got to KAF in January, FF in March, and back to KAF in September. Been on the board about a month or so, enough to get banned (NIPR and iFone both apparently give Ian fits tracking the IP, so it looks like I'm deliberately screwing with my identity) and kicked (for being honest about how I feel about the LNs), and post a Byzantine TL.

And nope, have no idea. Where were you?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
20th EN BN, aka TF Lumberjack. I got to KAF in January, FF in March, and back to KAF in September. Been on the board about a month or so, enough to get banned (NIPR and iFone both apparently give Ian fits tracking the IP, so it looks like I'm deliberately screwing with my identity) and kicked (for being honest about how I feel about the LNs), and post a Byzantine TL.

And nope, have no idea. Where were you?

I was in the 2PPCLI Battle Group, during Medusa in Panjwaii. I was a Coyote driver. It's fucking insane that someone else who's been to Kandahar is on the board, though!
 
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