Airborne armour at operation market garden

This is based from my troop carrier and @Peg leg pom's picture and last part about market garden

In mid 1941 with the success of the vanguard I&II troop carrier and bishop in combat, a shelved literally on paper proposal is brought forwards which brings both interest and disdain the an airborne tank using the vanguard II which itself is from the now semi obsolete Vickers MK VI light tanks. Tetrarch light tank is in service but by now problems were cropping up poor engine ventilation, thin armour, an inadequate cannon.

The A40 light tank is created and trialled in a matter of months, resembling a vanguard with a turret, to offset the poor armament the A40 is armed with 25 pounder. The first versions of the 'tinker toy' are trialled in Madagascar their cannon proving to useful against strong points and dug in 75mm pieces. In mid 1942 the second version is armed with the six pounder cannon. However all this comes at a price the Hamilcar gliders are cramped by the tank.

Both versions see action in the bold Operation market garden.

NOTE: In this scenario the weather remains clear, there are more transports available.

Could the paratroopers fare now with airborne armour?
How does the presence of tanks change the battle?
How would the Germans react to airborne armour?

Bonus scenario the allies do reach the paratroopers in time.
 
Last edited:
I've often wondered if the Allied AB divisions would have been better off with a largish group of the US 107mm rifled tube mortars? Relatively light, and very small deck coverage in the aircraft. Ammo was a bit lighter too. The trade off is less range but if you can put 50% more tubes in action perhaps theredis a gain?
 
Having 25pounders would be a lot better than relying on PIATs for tossing HE

The 1st Airborne Division had 3 x 8 gun Batteries of 75mm Pack Howitzers - 2 batteries of which landed in the fist wave

3" Mortars at battalion level and 2" at Platoon (and IIRC Section for the Paras) level were also used for tossing HE leaving the PIAT to worry tanks

But 25 Pounders would certainly be better as the 75mm is only lobbing a 15 pound shell and does not have the same range as the 25 Pounder
 
Your A40 has to weigh no more than 7 tonnes and fit in a box 4.2 metres long, 2.35 wide and 2.2 high to get it in a Hamilcar glider. With the weight of a 25 pounder it will be armoured against little more than small arms and shrapnel. At 7.5 tonnes it will be driven back bucking when fired assuming the chassis is up to the stress. Hence the Mk VIII Light Tank became the Alecto SP gun with an open light hull and the 95mm Howitzer. Further the 25 pounder needs full elevation to reach full range. Even on a Valentine chassis (Bishop) it could not fully elevate the gun. In a less than 2 metre high hull there is no way to drop the breech low enough.

I would suggest the Alecto is a guide of what can be achieved with the given 'box' and a 25 pounder is a step too far. Still horribly vulnerable. What they need might be more ammunition for the existing suite of weapons?
 
I've often wondered if the Allied AB divisions would have been better off with a largish group of the US 107mm rifled tube mortars? Relatively light, and very small deck coverage in the aircraft. Ammo was a bit lighter too. The trade off is less range but if you can put 50% more tubes in action perhaps theredis a gain?
Too bad they never adopted the 120mm mortar, or even the Soviet 107mm lightweight...as it was, the adoption of the M3 105mm howitzer by the US Airborne also upped the punch at the expense of maximum range, so the mortar idea is pretty much unexplored gold.
 
ATL Enough airlift is available to land Poles on the south shore of the Rhine River during day one. Poles romp around Driel, discouraging German counter-attacks.
A handful of Polish wheeled SP AT guns make it to the north end of Arnhem Bridge by evening and discourage Panzers from getting too close.
By wheeled SP guns, I am thinking more along the lines of Archers or portees or the modern Centaur with hydraulically-operated recoil spades or base-plates quickly lowered into firing position.
They still have monocoque lower hulls armoured against land mines, but little more than canvas on top to reduce strain on Hamilcar gliders. Bolt-on upper armour only arrives with the third or fourth wave of air-landed (slung under Stirling bombers) AFVs.
 
The M30 107mm USA mortar was well post war. The Ordnance ML 4.2-inch mortar?

The wheeled armoured cars with a 6 pounder or ROF 75mm gun are to large and too heavy to fit.
 
Whilst I would not be at the head of the queue volunteering for the job the PIAT was a very versatile device and goes well with a Universal Carrier and crew to give mobility onto the objective and the firepower at close range to deter armour and capable of indirect fire as a species of mortar. Voted one of the top infantry weapons by the Canadians. The Universal carrier is an easy fit in a Hamilcar.
 
I think that mounting a 25-Pounder on something this small isn't workable. The recoil is going to shake the tank apart and accuracy is going to suck. The max weight a Hamilcar can carry is 7 tons, so that's your upper limit on weight. The T19 105mm SPG Half-track weighed about 9.5 tons and the knock on it was the recoil was too strong for the vehicle.

I don't think that armored vehicles are the key to a more successful Market Garden.
I think you would be better off on focusing on how to get 2 lifts of paratroopers on the ground on the first day and as you mention having troops landing closer to the bridges would expedite the advance of XXX Corps.
 

Deleted member 1487

I've often wondered if the Allied AB divisions would have been better off with a largish group of the US 107mm rifled tube mortars? Relatively light, and very small deck coverage in the aircraft. Ammo was a bit lighter too. The trade off is less range but if you can put 50% more tubes in action perhaps theredis a gain?
Edit: sorry misread the post as recoilless rifles, not mortars.

I'm pretty sure they didn't exist in WW2. 57mm was as high as they went in 1944 and the 75mm version only showed up in the very last months of the war.
That said, yes, had it been available it would have been ideal for them, hence the Germans developing it for their own paratroopers. Even the 75mm version would have been a huge help.

Whilst I would not be at the head of the queue volunteering for the job the PIAT was a very versatile device and goes well with a Universal Carrier and crew to give mobility onto the objective and the firepower at close range to deter armour and capable of indirect fire as a species of mortar. Voted one of the top infantry weapons by the Canadians. The Universal carrier is an easy fit in a Hamilcar.
Not a bad option given the choices at the time. I've read an analysis that suggested for infantry the mortar is the best firepower to have, with an RPG (or some sort of direct fire HE infantry weapon equivalent like the PIAT) is 2nd best. Since the PIAT could do both and had a pretty heavy warhead it would have been a double threat then. However, didn't it have accuracy and reliability problems?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think that mounting a 25-Pounder on something this small isn't workable. The recoil is going to shake the tank apart and accuracy is going to suck. The max weight a Hamilcar can carry is 7 tons, so that's your upper limit on weight. The T19 105mm SPG Half-track weighed about 9.5 tons and the knock on it was the recoil was too strong for the vehicle.
Soviet ZiS-30 with 57mmL73 had more recoil energy than the 25 pdr, and was a 4 ton SPG
 
Soviet ZiS-30 with 57mmL73 had more recoil energy than the 25 pdr, and was a 4 ton SPG
Didn't say it couldn't be done; said it wouldn't be workable. I talked with guys who fired the 90mm on the M-56 and the 152mm on the Sheridan and they all said it shook their fillings loose and tossed them around; just was too much recoil for the chassis too handle. Maybe the ZiS had a terrific recoil system that reduced the shock on the vehicle, not familiar with it.
 
I'm pretty sure they didn't exist in WW2. 57mm was as high as they went in 1944 and the 75mm version only showed up in the very last months of the war.
That said, yes, had it been available it would have been ideal for them, hence the Germans developing it for their own paratroopers. Even the 75mm version would have been a huge help.
\
He's talking mortars, not recoilless rifles. I read it that way at first then realized that he was talking about mortars. The old M-2 4.2" was used by Chemical Mortar battalions.
 
Okay I did say one version is armed with the six pounder a decent and effective cannon.

Still the Germans would be able to knock out a few of the tinker toys but the appearance of airborne armour would rattle them.
 
The 17llb anti tank gun was landed at Arnhem by Hamilcar glider. During operation Varsity the Airborne Armoured Recce Regiment had 4.2" mortor as part of it's OOB, nor sure if any were landed at Arnhem.
 
Let's see the paratrooper land with vehicles the appearance of light tanks certainly makes things hard forcing to retreat.

Both 25 and 6 pounder version prove to be invaluable as they are vulnerable to the autocannon of armored cars and S.S forces.

The battle to contain the paratrooper is a slow grinding waiting game as Germans force the paratrooper to expend resources and wear them down.
 
Isn’t the bigger problem going to be the delay in the follow-on drops? So you get a few light tanks on ground, how much fuel do you get down with them? How long until they turn into lightly-armored pillboxes?
 
I'm pretty sure they didn't exist in WW2. 57mm was as high as they went in 1944 and the 75mm version only showed up in the very last months of the war.
That said, yes, had it been available it would have been ideal for them, hence the Germans developing it for their own paratroopers. Even the 75mm version would have been a huge help.


?


Aren't you thinking of recoilless rifles not mortars?
 
Honestly, the change of giving extended good weather and enough transport to make additional drops on Day 1 would have a vastly greater impact than adding a handful of airborne tanks.
 
Top