Air Launched V-1

Sior

Banned
Why did the Germans not develop an air-launched version of the V-1 during WWII?

It seems to me that this would have seriously impaired the efforts of the RAF to shoot them down - once they detect the incoming Stukas, He 111s, and Bf-109s, and they scramble Spitfires to meet them, they think they're just ordinary German fighters and bombers.

Until the Spitfires close with the German planes, start firing, and suddenly each Stuka launches a V-1 from under each of its wings and turns for home as the V-1s streak past the Spitfires towards London...

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Research it's not difficult.
 

JRScott

Banned
To get air launched ones you'd have to accelerate the timeframe of the Arado AR 234. This could be done if the Big Week bombing campaign was less successful than in history. This would prevent factories that were to make the Arado AR 234s from switching to other aircraft. This would mean upwards of 500 a month being produced by late summer/fall of 1944, probably swinging the war dramatically towards Germany.

Other ways to make the V-1 more viable:

If you wanted a more viable V-1 then you'd want them to carry chemical/biological weapons. Hitler refused to use chemical/biological weapons in WWII due to his own personal experiences in WWI. Perhaps someone develops them without Hitler's knowledge, difficult but not impossible.

Alternately the allies fail to stop the German atomic program and they develop a nuclear weapon, but instead of a bomb they used modified V-1s. Say goodbye to London, and Leningrad, and Moscow. (Combined with an accelerated Arado AR234B and AR234C this would in effect cause the surrender of all European and Asian allies within 3 months of its development).


 
Yes, the V-1 & V-2 programs were a complete waste of resources; & yes, the Germans did air-launch V-1s-- which was another waste of resources. Around $3 billion wartime dollars-- & that was back when a single buck bought you dinner. 50% more money than the Manhattan Project.

...but that said, they could have gotten a lot more out of their V-1 program & cancelled the V-2. (After all, Hitler himself wasn't impressed with the V-2. He said it was just an artillery shell with a longer range.)

(The only advantages of the V-2 were a minor increase of range & lot more speed. It's payload was only 1000kg. That's roughly the internal bomb load of your average medium bomber. Pathetic. The V-1 carried 850kg, but the range of the V-1 was only 250km @ 400mph for 5100RM apiece. The V-2 gave you 320km @ 3580mph for a mere 100,000RM apiece. What the hell were those Nazis thinking?)

The V-1's 3 big problems were poor accuracy, slow speed (a late-model Spitfire could run it down), & limited range.

So 1st, you attach relatively small liquid-fueled rocket boosters under the wings (liquid-fueled only because the solid fuel rocket hadn't been invented yet). If necessary then you reduce the payload.

...and 2d you add a command link link they had with the Hs-293/D TV guided glide-bomb. Now yeah, I know that the Hs-293/D was never used operationally because the military thought the TV gudance system was unreliable, but the tester-- a guy named Dr.-Ing. Herbert Wagner-- thought the equipment was fine & it was his own lack of skill as a bomb aimer that was at fault.


With these 2 changes you now have a missile you can control from an airborne command post like maybe the 2-seat Do-335 A-10. Long loiter time, high speed... Your V-1 gets into the terminal stage of its flight path, you establish radio contact, switch on the rocket boosters, & now it's got longer range & can no longer be intercepted. Properly designed, the flare of the rockets should be visible a long way off, & you use the TV guidance system to home in on a city-sized target.​

It isn't a war winner, but it's better than firing off these expensive things to land in a freakin' field somewhere.​

[BTW, I agree with JRScott that the V-weapons were ideally suited to carry chemical weapons, of which Germany had the most advanced in the world, & gicven the Nazi level of morality there is no reason in the world for them not to have used 'em. Some things in life just don't make sense. For more on this point see my thread, "What if Germany does beat Russia?"]

 

JRScott

Banned
As I pointed out primarily Hitler refused to use their chemical/biological weapons. It is said his experience with mustard gas during WWI had made him vehemently opposed to their use, he wouldn't even use their vast stockpiles as Berlin fell.

Nice redesign of the V1 though you have.

The German's wasted tons of money, a lot of it on stuff never even used in the war.
 
This would mean upwards of 500 a month being produced by late summer/fall of 1944, probably swinging the war dramatically towards Germany.
And would do nothing for anyone else, since it early on used the same Junkers Jumo engine as the Me 262, and in any case all the early jets guzzled fuel, which was in short supply

If you wanted a more viable V-1 then you'd want them to carry chemical/biological weapons. Hitler refused to use chemical/biological weapons in WWII due to his own personal experiences in WWI. Perhaps someone develops them without Hitler's knowledge, difficult but not impossible.
And then gets summarily executed, hopefully before deploying it, because the Allies will respond, and mass drops of anthrax cakes are plenty bad.

Alternately the allies fail to stop the German atomic program and they develop a nuclear weapon...
You've obviously not read up on either the German nuclear program (they were barking up completely the wrong tree) or the Manhattan Project for that matter (Little Boy weighed more than 9,500 pounds, Fat Man more than 10,000).

(The only advantages of the V-2 were a minor increase of range & lot more speed. It's payload was only 1000kg. That's roughly the internal bomb load of your average medium bomber. Pathetic. The V-1 carried 850kg, but the range of the V-1 was only 250km @ 400mph for 5100RM apiece. The V-2 gave you 320km @ 3580mph for a mere 100,000RM apiece. What the hell were those Nazis thinking?)
Well the V2 couldn't be intercepted once it was in the air, and 1000kg is a pretty sizeable load considering it's a single bomb. Also, the issue with the V2 was not the rocket - that was pretty devastating as proved on 25 November 1944 when a single rocket hit a Woolworths store, killing 160 and seriously injuring 108 more - but with the fact that the Germans were relying on 'their' spies to tell them where the rockets were landing. The problem for the Germans was, that there weren't any loyal spies in Britain, so they were being fed a line, which resulted in terrible accuracy.

So 1st, you attach relatively small liquid-fueled rocket boosters under the wings (liquid-fueled only because the solid fuel rocket hadn't been invented yet).
You have that round the wrong way, solid rockets were plentiful and well-developed at the time, it was liquid rockets that were just starting to appear.

With these 2 changes you now have a missile you can control from an airborne command post like maybe the 2-seat Do-335 A-10. Long loiter time, high speed... Your V-1 gets into the terminal stage of its flight path, you establish radio contact, switch on the rocket boosters, & now it's got longer range & can no longer be intercepted. Properly designed, the flare of the rockets should be visible a long way off, & you use the TV guidance system to home in on a city-sized target.
Since the V1 weights more than two tons and the Do-335 can lift only about 1 ton, how were you planning for that to work? Also, the guidance aircraft would be a prefect target, it would need a direct line-of-sight on the V1, and so would be easily 'seen' from the ground and shot out of the sky.
 
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JRScott

Banned
You're assuming a Nuclear Tipped V-1 would have the same capability as a fat boy, it wouldn't. Keep in mind the V-1's greatest problem is inaccuracy. something more along a 2kt detonation (or 8 TJ) would have been possible with a V-1. You'd put a few nuclear tipped ones into each wave, so that the allies don't know which one to shoot down. The terror effect of the weapon alone would be gamestopping.

But you are correct if Hitler found out who modified and launched chemical/biological tipped V-1s they most likely would be executed assuming Hitler himself was still alive.
 

sharlin

Banned
Basically the V1 needs to be written off as a weapon of anything other than indiscriminate use and serving a role as nothing more than a terror device. It's less accurate than a 1st gen scud (with their CEP of several miles) is slow, easily intercepted NO MATTER THE LAUNCH PLATFORM and trying to guide them remotely from a plane is silly. The RAF are not going to go.

"Hmm...radar said that something just launched from that bomber and is heading towards the capital, and that bombers just hanging around, same course and speed....ahh fuck it, tea, crumpets and medals followed by a round of polo what what!"

They would shoot the slow, lumbering launch craft down.
 
You're assuming a Nuclear Tipped V-1 would have the same capability as a fat boy, it wouldn't. Keep in mind the V-1's greatest problem is inaccuracy. something more along a 2kt detonation (or 8 TJ) would have been possible with a V-1.
That's assuming you can develop such weapons, and that such weapons are light enough and small enough to mount on a V1. As it was though, the Germans really had no idea what they were doing.
 
But, it wouldn't've matter if it'd been launched from under Mrs. Hitler's skirt, because they still would've mostly missed. yes, all London. As MUC rightly pointed out. Sorry!

It hit cow pastures rather more often than city, even though it was SUPPOSED to be aimed at London Bridge.

It sucked because it was an early version, what we engineers call 'alphas', that really only work well in the lab, not practical life. The computer went through a similar stage at about the same time, when it was more trouble than it was worth.

Yes, OTL, it was more of a help to the Allies because the massive effort could better've been spent on, say, bombers.


And, why consider Nazi nukes when they noability to make then in a useful timeframe.
 
the principal problem with the V1 regardless of how or where it is launched is the absence of a proper control system

V1 wuith inertial nav would be an effective cruise missile ,rather than something that hits somewhere ina N mile radius of the planned target and is suceptible to going substantially off course by nothing more than the literal flap of a butterflies wings ...
 
Yes, the V-1 & V-2 programs were a complete waste of resources; & yes, the Germans did air-launch V-1s-- which was another waste of resources. Around $3 billion wartime dollars-- & that was back when a single buck bought you dinner. 50% more money than the Manhattan Project.

...but that said, they could have gotten a lot more out of their V-1 program & cancelled the V-2. (After all, Hitler himself wasn't impressed with the V-2. He said it was just an artillery shell with a longer range.)

Yes but he changed his mind later on. From Walter Dornberger's Wiki page:

I have had to apologize only to two men in my whole life. The first was Field Marshal von Brauchitsch. I did not listen to him when he told me again and again how important your research was. The second man is yourself. I never believed that your work would be successful.
—Adolf Hitler, Apology to Major-General Dornberger, 8 July 1944​
 
Since the V1 weights more than two tons and the Do-335 can lift only about 1 ton, how were you planning for that to work?
The Do-335 doesn't have to launch the V-1. You launch it from rails on the ground just like always, acquire it in the air, establish radio contact, & then control it into the target. I said nothing about using the Do-335 to air-launch the V-1. I specifically said you establish radio contact in the terminal phase.

As for interception of the Do-335, it'll take the Brits a while to catch on that the Do-335 is controlling the missile. Once they do, the Do-335 is faster than the V-1 & can elude. By the time that becomes a problem, hopefully you'll have the Ar-234 available.

Thanks for the correction on the SRBs, but you'll forgive me if I don't think that a 100,000RM investment in 1945 RMs is cost effective to kill 160 Brit civvies & injure another 100 or so. At that rate the Fatherland will run out of money long before the UK runs out of Brit civvies. [And a 1000kg payload isn't impressive at all, espec. given the cost of the vehicle & the program that built it. Fully loaded, a B-17 carried almost 8000kg of bombs to a range of around 1500 miles, compared to 320 miles for the V-2, & it cost a tiny fraction as much.]
Thegn.
 
The Do-335 doesn't have to launch the V-1. You launch it from rails on the ground just like always, acquire it in the air, establish radio contact, & then control it into the target. I said nothing about using the Do-335 to air-launch the V-1. I specifically said you establish radio contact in the terminal phase.
So what you're doing is putting a ridiculously expensive aircraft in a vulnerable position to do final guidance correction on a missile worth a fraction its cost?

As for interception of the Do-335, it'll take the Brits a while to catch on that the Do-335 is controlling the missile. Once they do, the Do-335 is faster than the V-1 & can elude. By the time that becomes a problem, hopefully you'll have the Ar-234 available.
Ah, so the British are just going to ignore an anomalous radar contact coming over from France? Bull, the British would be after the Dornier the moment they knew it was German.

Thanks for the correction on the SRBs, but you'll forgive me if I don't think that a 100,000RM investment in 1945 RMs is cost effective to kill 160 Brit civvies & injure another 100 or so. At that rate the Fatherland will run out of money long before the UK runs out of Brit civvies. [And a 1000kg payload isn't impressive at all, espec. given the cost of the vehicle & the program that built it. Fully loaded, a B-17 carried almost 8000kg of bombs to a range of around 1500 miles, compared to 320 miles for the V-2, & it cost a tiny fraction as much.]
Compare the fact that most individual bombers landed their stuff in open fields, and that big week cost more than 200 of the things.
 
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Nuclear tipped V-1s and V-2s are as much ASB and break of all logic as Unmentionable Sea Mammal is, if not more. It took nearly a decade of peacetime Cold War research for USA to develop miniature enough nuclear weapons that could fit in such small volume and mass restriction. There is no way in heaven or hell Germany could do faster. So you need first x time (where x is unknown and likely 5+ years) for Germans to work out how to make a nuclear weapon, than again almost a decade for them to miniaturize their nukes enough to fit them on missiles. So we could be looking at first nuclear tipped V-2s sometimes around 1960. I suppose if ASB made Allies fall into a coma for 15 years it could work.
 
It took nearly a decade of peacetime Cold War research for USA to develop miniature enough nuclear weapons that could fit in such small volume and mass restriction. ...So you need first x time (where x is unknown and likely 5+ years) for Germans to work out how to make a nuclear weapon, than again almost a decade for them to miniaturize their nukes enough to fit them on missiles. ...I suppose if ASB made Allies fall into a coma for 15 years it could work.
As a matter of fact, the only way they could even fit the early A-bombs into the huge bomb bay of a B-29 was to remove the bulkhead & merge the airplane's 2 adjacent bomb bays into 1. There was a whole R&D project parallel to the Manhattan Project to modify the B-29 to carry the things.

In order to have Nazis with nukes you've gotta have a POD somewhere back in the late '30s, shortly after the discovery of nuclear fission. And you've gotta have somebody other than Heisenberg in charge. A brilliant theorist, he was a lousy engineer. Didn't understand bomb physics, vastly over-estimated how much uranium would be needed to achieve critical mass, & never even managed to build a working reactor, much less a working bomb.

In 1941 a German scientist named Walther Bothe greatly underestimated the diffusion path of slow neutrons in graphite. Consequently the German researchers chose heavy water as the moderator instead of graphite, but their sole production facility for heavy water was a fertilizer plant in Norway. In Feb. 1943 a British commando team sabotaged the plant, subsequent air raids kept knocking it off-line, & so in 1944 the Germans decided to move their supply of heavy water to Germany & resume production there. In Feb. 1944 a British agent scuttled the ferry the heavy water was being shipped on, but by that time the Germans were easily 5 years behind the Manhattan Project.

...and then, even if you get it built, there's the problem of a delivery system. As grdja83 points out, it's 'way too big to fit in a V-2, & Germany had no strategic bomber.
Thegn.
 
So 1st, you attach relatively small liquid-fueled rocket boosters under the wings (liquid-fueled only because the solid fuel rocket hadn't been invented yet).

The rockets carried by RAF fighters were solids and the technology was widely available.

What wasn't possible was large diameter solids, apparently one of the reasons why Lindeman dismissed the reports of the V2, though if this is actually the case, why he didn't consider liquids is a bit of a mystery tome.
 
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