Air France in India...

MacCaulay

Banned
..."Air France" was a common nickname among international gearwhores in the 50s and 60s for the Israeli Air Force, as it bought almost completely French equipment for a number of years.

While doing some other research, I came across a number of sources that talked about the initial MiG-21 purchase by India as being not really ideologically driven but prescribed more by the ease with which the USSR was willing to work with them on outsourcing the construction with Hindustan Aeronautics.

The other two aircraft in the running were the F-104 (a distant third) and the Mirage III.

After India made the MiG-21 purchase, the IAF very much drifted into the Soviet sphere in land based air (though it still continued to buy some French and British aircraft) simply because it was easier to keep going that way and the Soviets were making them a good deal.

So...how would the Indian air force, wider military, and society in general have changed had they gone with the Mirage III and a working relationship with Dassault and France?
 

Cook

Banned
So potentially you’d have ended up with air combat between Pakistani Mirage 111s and Indian Mirage 111s.

Makes aircraft identification in a dogfight a bitch doesn’t it?
:)
 
So potentially you’d have ended up with air combat between Pakistani Mirage 111s and Indian Mirage 111s.

Makes aircraft identification in a dogfight a bitch doesn’t it?
:)

Well, India buying from a NATO member implies that they have closer ties than OTL. Pakistan would have then aligned with the Soviets because they didn't want to be in the same alliance with India.

But yes, this situation could develop..
 

Cook

Banned
Well, India buying from a NATO member implies that they have closer ties than OTL. Pakistan would have then aligned with the Soviets because they didn't want to be in the same alliance with India.

But yes, this situation could develop..

Switzerland used the Mirage and was strictly neutral so a Non-aligned India using the Mirage isn’t a stretch.
 
Switzerland used the Mirage and was strictly neutral so a Non-aligned India using the Mirage isn’t a stretch.

True, but I think NATO would want to make sure its weapons aren't being used against their allies before they sell them. Switzerland isn't going to invade France or Germany, so NATo has no problem making a a little money off of them. India, on the other hand, is much more likely to use them against Pakistan, a US ally, or China, who the US is trying to get out of the Soviet camp. A neutral India using Mirages is very possible, but IMO it'd be more likely if they had better relations with NATO compared to OTL.
 

Thande

Donor
Well, India buying from a NATO member implies that they have closer ties than OTL. Pakistan would have then aligned with the Soviets because they didn't want to be in the same alliance with India.

But it's France we're talking about. If you want to buy from any country in NATO without being seen as having ties to NATO, you'd buy from France, the plausible deniability is there.
 

Cook

Banned
But it's France we're talking about. If you want to buy from any country in NATO without being seen as having ties to NATO, you'd buy from France, the plausible deniability is there.

I don’t think plausible deniability was ever an issue.

They were selling to nations that they were at peace with, so as long as they had the Francs they were good to go.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Switzerland was definitely NATO-aligned. I mean, "strictly neutral," but that doesn't mean that they didn't recognize keeping the Communists out of Western Europe was in their self-interest.
 

Cook

Banned
Switzerland was definitely NATO-aligned. I mean, "strictly neutral," but that doesn't mean that they didn't recognize keeping the Communists out of Western Europe was in their self-interest.

Switzerland and Austria both had defence doctrines during the cold war that anticipated that they may be attacked be either Warsaw Pact or NATO or both and designed their forces to defend against such an attack.

At no time did Swiss military forces liaise with NATO.
 
Switzerland was definitely NATO-aligned. I mean, "strictly neutral," but that doesn't mean that they didn't recognize keeping the Communists out of Western Europe was in their self-interest.

Well, they were essentially surrounded by NATO. Sorta like with the Nazis in WW2. If NATO wanted to, they could effectively cut off Switzerland from all foreign trade. Makes sense to have good relations with a bloc that has that kind of power over you.
 

Cook

Banned
Switzerland had good relations with its neighbours, but was still strictly neutral, they didn’t even join the United Nations until 2002.
 
India's not going to be shifting towards the West with Indira or Nehru in the PMO. Desai would be your best bet (pro-American, economic conservative) but having him win the INC leadership in 1964, 1966 or 1967 is rather tricky. IOTL they shifted towards the US under Rajiv, but not fully until Rao/Singh took office in '91.
 
That sounds like a crazy idea, Mac! How'd you ever think of something like that?

Oh god, Mac's snapped! :eek:

:p

No, but seriously...an interesting POD. I can't see it as changing things TOO much (though this will certainly have effects on the French aerospace industry, especially if Israel sours on them as per OTL), but definitely interesting.
 

Cook

Banned
Oh god, Mac's snapped! :eek:

:p

No, but seriously...an interesting POD. I can't see it as changing things TOO much (though this will certainly have effects on the French aerospace industry, especially if Israel sours on them as per OTL), but definitely interesting.

Mac’s just looking for ways to sell more Mirage 111s.
:)
 
India was a poor country with low general levels of education, I'd think that the crude and cheap Mig 21 would have a lot going for it in comparison with the Mirage III.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
That sounds like a crazy idea, Mac! How'd you ever think of something like that?
I lol'd. I can't wait until the day you really snap and go crazy on us.:p

Anyway, this seems like a good idea. France had a history of being independent mofos when dealing in arms, and they would drool over this big a contract.
 
India was a poor country with low general levels of education, I'd think that the crude and cheap Mig 21 would have a lot going for it in comparison with the Mirage III.

The Mirage III is not particularly complex, either, and the MiG-21 has the range of a football and problems with maneuverability that the Mirage III hasn't got.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
But it's France we're talking about. If you want to buy from any country in NATO without being seen as having ties to NATO, you'd buy from France, the plausible deniability is there.

That's what I'm thinking. France seems willing to sell to anyone so long as they're not actual Warsaw Pact members and their checks clear.

Oh god, Mac's snapped! :eek:

Mac’s just looking for ways to sell more Mirage 111s.
:)

I like Mirage IIIs alot. They're the Centurions of the skies.

I lol'd. I can't wait until the day you really snap and go crazy on us.:p

Anyway, this seems like a good idea. France had a history of being independent mofos when dealing in arms, and they would drool over this big a contract.

I think the Indians ended up ordering something between 80-110 of them, but as I'm moving my sources are in a box so I can't be completely sure.
 
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