Air Force challenge: Have Mirage 50 become ATL Viper

In the sense of being the primary export multirole fighter for NATO and Western-aligned countries. POD 1979, when the Mirage 50 first flew. Bonus for 15+ countries, Double Bonus if it becomes navalized. Triple Bonus if it remains in frontline service in 7-8 countries to the present day.

Ultimate Bonus: Two countries operating them go to war and Mirage 50s rack up kills on their enemy counterparts.

Specs.
Upgrades, specifically PANTERA.

FAV 50EV
fav_mirage_50ev.jpg


Ditto
avion-mirage-50-venezuela.JPG



FAC Pantera.
pantera.jpg
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Well...supposing there was never a French embargo on Israel, this would leave the "Mirage market" open for Dassault and not IAI-Lahav. In 1967 and 1973, Israeli pilots in French Mirage IIIs and Mirage Vs make amazing aerial victories that allow the French to take their miracle aircraft to the world with proven combat records. The Mirage 50 ends up making inroads because in the intervening the Mirages III and V has been sold to Libya, Egypt, Iraq, South Africa, Israel, India, Australia, Pakistan, West Germany, Yugoslavia, and Canada (instead of the F-104).

After positive reviews from the users of the IIIs and Vs, France is able to drum up more support for buyers when the 50 comes out. Canada, Australia, Israel, West Germany, Spain, and India buy squadrons for interception with various indigenous production offsets, Taiwan arms it's air force with the 50. Libya is sold a dozen as are Argentina, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia.


The 1980s turn out to be the halcyon days of the Mirage 50 around the world: In 1982, the Mirage 50 is used in combat over the South Atlantic when Argentinian Mirages engage British Harriers over the Falklands.

In the mid-80s, France sells another dozen to Yugoslavia with the stipulation that SOKO makes adjustments in-country to allow for East Bloc weapons.

In 1987, a border skirmish between Egypt and Libya erupts into several air duels that see Mirage 50s pitted against each other. It is not the only time the aircraft will see combat that year: the entire decade will see the Iraqi Mirage 50 fleet take on the Iranian F-4 and F-14 fleets.

When the Soviet Union falls in 1991, 12 countries operate the Mirage 50. Due to it's financial woes involving reunification, the new German government decides to sell off three dozen Mirage 50s, leading Indonesia to buy 24 ex-Luftwaffe Mirage 50s. The others go to Spain, which is upgrading it's fleet.

Israeli Mirage 50s are stepped down from active duty in the mid-90s. 12 are sold to Peru, another 4 to South Africa as payment for earlier debts, and the rest are sold to private collectors or put into storage.




So I believe I had... Canada, Australia, Israel, West Germany, Spain, India, Taiwan, Libya, Argentina, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yugoslavia, Peru, and South Africa.
 

Archibald

Banned
Hmmm ?:confused: The Mirage 50 was the last evolution of an outdated machine, the Mirage III.
Dassault own F-16 was supposed to be the Mirage 2000 - or the Mirage F1 - the atar or the M53 variant that lost to the F16 in 1974 in the "deal of the century".
 
A F1 or 2000 was rather expensive to operate for a Third World country. The first Vipers didn't reach Indonesia till 1989, Thailand till 1988, Greece till 1994, 8-15 years after IOC with their original 4 NATO customers. By contrast, a Mirage 50 upgraded to PANTERA-equivalent standard is dirt cheap and like the Viper can be abused by its pilot.

Mac: Kudos for fulfilling the original OP and the Ultimate Bonus. If anyone wants to fulfill the navalization one? ;)

Finally: political conditions. If you want to gingerly leave the Soviet bloc or NAM (same thing really) as with India in the Rajiv Gandhi years, but don't want to make a big splash by going full bore with American equipment, you can buy the 50s. France is not known for excessive political conditions on their equipment most of the time. :p
 

Archibald

Banned
Ok ! I know two case where Mirage could kill Mirage :D

Let Israel have their Mirage 50s in the 70's. Lebanon also had Mirage 50s ! Lebanon involvment in Yom Kippur war maybe ?

Another opportunity is this: Peru Vs Ecuador, 1995. Mirage F1, Kfir and Mirage 2000s ! Have Peru and Ecuador buy Mirage 50s only :rolleyes:

http://s188567700.online.de/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=97&Itemid=47

Air Battle of Alto Canepa
After a failure of negotiations, on 9 February, fiercest fighting broke out, and the FAP was now very active, launching a total of 16 combat sorties – including few by Mirage 5Ps and Su-22s. Obviously as more was at the stake, and threats higher than originally calculated, the Peruvian High Command concluded that it was about the time to bring some of reserves to bear. The main targets of FAP strikes were Coangos and Base del Sur. The activity continued into the following night, FAP Canberras bombing Ecuadorian positions in the Cenepa Valley, and in the morning of 10 February, FAP A-37s and Su-22s also flew a series of strikes against Tiwintza and Cueva de los Tayos. AEP helicopters were involved as well – a fact confirmed when Ecuadorians again claimed two FAP Mi-8 as shot down; another claim that was never confirmed.

The increased and intensified appearance of the FAP fighter-bombers and helicopters finally resulted in Ecuadorian decision to establish air superiority over the battlefield. When the GCI-station “Halcon” – obviously posted on one of the mountain peaks in the Loja area, from where it could see deep over northern Peru – informed the COMAC about tracking five “red” (meaning Peruvian) aircraft approaching the combat zone at speeds between 300 and 400km/h, at 12:42hrs, Col. Buchelli ordered Col. Salgado of the COM-1 to arrange for the Mirages and Kfirs to be scrambled. The two officers agreed that this time the fighters were to intercept and shot down whatever FAP aircraft they might find. In order to enable the later task, they have had to organize also the evacuation of all FAE assets already operating over the Condor Cordillera. Consequently, at 12:47hrs, the COS-1 issued the order for two Mirage F.1JAs and two Kfirs to be scrambled – probably from Mariscal Lamar airfield, or from Macas. (Note: Ecuadorian sources all give Taura AB as the airfield from which the FAE interceptors involved in the following air battles came; however, Taura AB is over 200km away from the combat zone, while in their narratives FAE pilots clearly stated that they engaged barely eight minutes after taking off, and only then engaging afterburners increasing their speed to supersonic; considering these facts, it is obvious that the Mirages and Kfirs were based closer to the combat zone).

Airborne by 12:49hrs, the two Mirages, flown by Maj. Raul Banderas (on FAE807) and Capt. Carlos Uzcategui Soli (on FAE806), approached the combat zone as first, followed by a pair of Kfir C.2s, flown by Capt. Mauricio Mata (on FAE905) and Capt. Wilfrido Moya (on FAE909). While interceptors were flying towards south-east, at 12:55hrs, the COMAC recalled a FAE T-34C that acted as FAC, away from Condor Cordillera, in order to prevent a possible “blue-on-blue” engagement. Meanwhile, at 12:53hrs, two A-37s based at Macas were put on alert.

This time the FAE interceptors arrived in time to even make a few patrol turns before engaging; the difference to earlier events was that some of FAP fighters – probably Mirage 2000Ps – were flying high, thus exposing themselves to detection by FAE radars. Indeed, Maj. Banderas later stated to have had the first enemy fighter on his radar scope barely eight minutes after taking off. The planes his Cyrano IV radar detected were two FAP Su-22Ms, flown by Lt.Col. Victor Manuel Maldonado-Begaza and Maj. Enrique Caballero Orrego “Poeta”, of the FAP Escuadrón de Caza 111 “Los Tigres”. These cut the corner over the border, penetrating as deep as 16km into the Ecuadorian airspace before taking a course parallel to the boundary and then descending to a level of 600m above the ground in preparation for an attack against Tiwintza.

Banderas selected afterburner accelerating and turning so to bring his and the Mirage of his wingman to a deep six o’clock position behind the two Sukhois. While doing so, his RWR warned him that his aircraft was detected and tracked by the radar of an enemy fighter. At 13:15hrs, ignoring the warnings, Capt. Uscategui approached to the firing distance and launched one R.550 Magic, starting what was to become the first-ever air-to-air combat between two Mach-2 capable fighters in Latin American history. His missile hit the Sukhoi flown by Lt.Col. Maldonado-Begaza, forcing him to eject before his fighter crashed into the jungle bellow. Meanwhile, Banderas scored a hit at Orrego’s Su-22M as well, but the sturdy Sukhoi continued flying. In a hurry because of the warnings from his RWR, Banderas swiftly selected the second Magic and fired again, the missile this time cutting the Peruvian fighter in two, the wreckage falling to the ground.

The two FAP-pilots never knew they were under attack: their fighters were not equipped with RWRs. Lieutenant-Colonel Maldonado-Begaza ejected safely, but was injured while parachuting through the jungle canopy. He survived for eight days in the jungle, without food or medicine, but finally succumbed to his wounds: his body, and the wreckage of his fighter were found on 26 February 1995; the body of Maj. Orrego and the wreckage of his fighter were found only five years later. The FAP never mounted a search and rescue operation for the two Sukhoi-pilots then there was no sign of them surviving the interception: their SABRE radios could simply not penetrate the thick jungle around them.

With their RWRs still screaming warnings of them being tracked by enemy fighters, the two victorious FAE Mirages descended deep over the jungle canopy and accelerated to supersonic speed, blasting away as they went. Neither Banderas nor Uscategui ever saw any of two FAP Mirages that obviously pursued them for almost 30 seconds, but they were not taking any chances (Carlos Uzcategui Soli was killed in an aircraft accident, in 2002; in the later years of his service a problem with his vision was detected, which prevented him from flying fast jets).
 
Good on the FAE pilots. :cool: Thankfully they didn't get bounced by the 2000s (bug out, RTB at treetop level with full ABs), but yeah, lack of RWR is a killer. Even if the Sukhois had RWR they'd have been downed anyways- attack aircraft have no chance in such a situation. Just survive a few minutes longer.

Navalization anyone? New ultimate challenge: 2 countries' carrier-based Mirage 50s engage each other and score kills.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Good on the FAE pilots. :cool: Thankfully they didn't get bounced by the 2000s (bug out, RTB at treetop level with full ABs), but yeah, lack of RWR is a killer. Even if the Sukhois had RWR they'd have been downed anyways- attack aircraft have no chance in such a situation. Just survive a few minutes longer.

Navalization anyone? New ultimate challenge: 2 countries' carrier-based Mirage 50s engage each other and score kills.

There was a naval Mirage III though...

Also, that would be also a "more carrier-operating countries" challenge I think: in the 80s, the carrier-operating countries are France, Spain, Italy, Britain, the US, the Soviet Union, Brazil, Argentina and India (Thailand's glorified merchant freighter with a launch catapult only dates from 1996). Maybe have more countries in South America buy Commonwealth/Netherlands surpluses of the Colossus-class, which is what Brazil, Argentina and India had during that time period (basically they bought the old Dutch and Australian carriers, while India grabbed some of the RN old ships). (EDIT: or Centaurs! I was mistaken on one point, in the 80s the Indians were operating a refurbished Centaur in addition to Vikrant (which is a Majestic-refit Colossus)). Maybe if you had a country consider building light carriers in the 15-25k tons range it could work, but I think it would require different naval programs - and actually be willing to do exports...
 
I can't find anything for a naval Mirage. No Mirage fighter has ever been navalized. Aside from France and Brazil, no Mirage III operator even owned a carrier. A Mirage is far too outsized for a Colossus-class CVL like the Minas Gerais or Vikrant. They could probably operate a single squadron off a Clemenceau-class CV though, and certainly the CdG.

Drop the naval battle requirement- the only countries that could see combat in Mac's bunch are India and Pakistan, and Pakistan doesn't have anything bigger than a FFG or SSN in its navy.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I can't find anything for a naval Mirage. No Mirage fighter has ever been navalized. Aside from France and Brazil, no Mirage III operator even owned a carrier. A Mirage is far too outsized for a Colossus-class CVL like the Minas Gerais or Vikrant. They could probably operate a single squadron off a Clemenceau-class CV though, and certainly the CdG.

Drop the naval battle requirement- the only countries that could see combat in Mac's bunch are India and Pakistan, and Pakistan doesn't have anything bigger than a FFG or SSN in its navy.

The Mirage IIIM (for Marine ;) ) was planned but not built as the french decided for another aircraft for the CdG (the info is on wiki though but they're usually good about that technical military stuff)...
The size is also not terribly different from the McDonnel Banshees Canada operated out of HMCS Bonaventure (also a Colossus refit); the main difference is weight though which admittedly could be a bad thing: the Mirage is one ton heavier empty, 2 tons heavier max load, but I can't find the loaded weight for a mirage (banshee was 10 tons). And length, which is almost one metre more than the Banshee so that could be the problem (wingspan, though, is less on the Mirage, being only 2/3 of the Banshee)
 
Ah yes, the Bonnie. Should've gotten one of the UK CVs (or US Essex-class) as a replacement were it not for... cet homme. :mad: In that case the Indians, Argies and Brazilians can operate them off their carriers. Now, how to get Argentina and Brazil into a shooting war?

A problem for the pilots, at least initially, will be the high approach speeds without flaps. Can be fixed with proper training though.

Among other things, they can form foreign equivalents of VFA squadrons, being multirole aircraft. No need for specialized attack aircraft if you have 50-equivalents of the IIIE or recon with IIIR. ASW can be left to helos (Seahawk, Seasprite, Ka-28/32) or Alize/Tracker. Tankers I have no idea. A navalized Mirage IV would definitely not fit on anything other than a USN carrier.
 
Ah yes, the Bonnie. Should've gotten one of the UK CVs (or US Essex-class) as a replacement were it not for... cet homme. :mad:
Yeah, that guy. The one just about every Canadian on the board loathes. There wouldn't have been an Essex-class in Canada's future - too much manpower needed to operate it. The Eagle or Ark Royal, on the other hand...... ;)
In that case the Indians, Argies and Brazilians can operate them off their carriers. Now, how to get Argentina and Brazil into a shooting war?

Toughie. Maybe there is a bitter border incident between them in 1982 or so, Argentina's junta decides to score a national pride point and picks a fight with Brazil, and the Brazilians respond? This would butterfly away the Falklands, of course.

Among other things, they can form foreign equivalents of VFA squadrons, being multirole aircraft. No need for specialized attack aircraft if you have 50-equivalents of the IIIE or recon with IIIR. ASW can be left to helos (Seahawk, Seasprite, Ka-28/32) or Alize/Tracker. Tankers I have no idea. A navalized Mirage IV would definitely not fit on anything other than a USN carrier.

Well, one could do what the Americans did and fit kits to come of the fighters. Four big fuel tanks under the wings, maybe with conformal tanks as well, could be a refueler.
 
So I believe I had... Canada, Australia, Israel, West Germany, Spain, India, Taiwan, Libya, Argentina, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Yugoslavia, Peru, and South Africa.

You could have added 2 more, The Netherlands was looking into the mirage and Belgium actually used it.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Ah yes, the Bonnie. Should've gotten one of the UK CVs (or US Essex-class) as a replacement were it not for... cet homme. :mad: In that case the Indians, Argies and Brazilians can operate them off their carriers. Now, how to get Argentina and Brazil into a shooting war?

A problem for the pilots, at least initially, will be the high approach speeds without flaps. Can be fixed with proper training though.

Among other things, they can form foreign equivalents of VFA squadrons, being multirole aircraft. No need for specialized attack aircraft if you have 50-equivalents of the IIIE or recon with IIIR. ASW can be left to helos (Seahawk, Seasprite, Ka-28/32) or Alize/Tracker. Tankers I have no idea. A navalized Mirage IV would definitely not fit on anything other than a USN carrier.

It's a carrier, proper training is essential anyway (and a lot of foreign pilots found landing on Bonnie extremely daunting so there's that). That might be one of the problems for operating a navalized Mirage III though as you need longer training: I suspect the two can afford it though.

And Mirage IV is a monster compared to the III - no argument about it XD
 
The high approach speed is coupled with a nose-high attitude indigenous to the tail-less delta, which the vestigal canard foreplanes have not the authority to negate. Either a droop-snoot like Concorde, or a completely funny nose like the Vought Cutlass would be required just to ameliorate this one concern.
 
Maintenance on a droop nose would be a bitch for the maintenance crews, especially given the saltwater exposure. Maybe the modified hard nose since it will be need to be constantly modified for radar and avionics upgrades during the aircraft's service life anyways? Plus, if the mechanism fails in flight, especially on takeoff or approach, you eject or screw the pooch.

I wonder what one of these planes would look like in various liveries. Anyone know how to do those 2D profiles we all know and love? :D
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Hmmm ?:confused: The Mirage 50 was the last evolution of an outdated machine, the Mirage III.
Dassault own F-16 was supposed to be the Mirage 2000 - or the Mirage F1 - the atar or the M53 variant that lost to the F16 in 1974 in the "deal of the century".

And the Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 weren't? It's not like some totally new French aerodynamicist walked into Dassault and said "I've got this idea! We're going to build a single seat fighter, with delta wings! And it'll be called...the Mirage!"

They were all generational improvements on each other. Hell, just look at the cockpit of the 50 and F1. They're practically the same. The fixed fuel probe, the canopy? The similarities almost outweigh the differences.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Also, rethinking about your WI regarding Naval air: one paper I found listed the operating cost of Bonnie as roughly 20 million a year (either 1963 or 2000 CAD unsure which*); while I couldn't find an equivalent number for Viraat. While it would require scrapping some secondary stuff, I suspect expanding Naval Air powers to a few of the South American republics besides the two that retained it OTL might be workable but there would need to be a reason... It's not like border conflicts in the region are lacking though, with Ecuador-Peru, Colombia-Peru, Chile-Peru, Chile-Bolivia, but apart for the Chilean ones there's little in the way of naval claims involved... And at the time Chile was on the edge of, since they operated two helicopter cruisers which I suspect would cost about as much to operate as a single ASW carrier like the Arks, and Peru. I haven't been able to find a clear number for Almirante Grau, but it seems like the operating costs are at least 2 million in 2000 USD. Considering personnel salaries are also a large part of those costs, it would probably be cheaper to operate in South America in general anyway.

However, the only way I could see it working is if there were conflicting claims over the islands, Easter, Galapagos, Tierra del Fuego, etc. Otherwise conflicts will remain land-air based predominantly.

*And that's part of the problem: I know the submarine arm costs 90 million each year to operate for example, so the argument "but the submarine force" becomes a bit weird if running a carrier only requires cutting one sub, or two frigates, so I'll assume the refurb did make op costs go up and it's 1963 CAD...

**Last edit: Also I found out that the south american Collosus class had 30 feet longer catapults, which if my info are not mistaken is almost a ton more payload that can be launched.
 
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