AIMA: A tale of Rome's third millenium, rebooted.

I would say there have already been tensions...the Crusaders' march through the Balkans in this TL was just as "eventful" as those of the 1st and 2nd Crusades' were for towns like Nis, Serdika and Adrianople. Frederick though is very serious about getting his army across the Empire (including Anatolia) without being destroyed as his predecessors were in the 2nd Crusade. I would not call this a lasting alliance, but the German and Roman emperors happen to have a common foe in the situation, a common foe who stands in the way of each of their ambitions.

That doesn't mean there won't be quite a bit of bickering at Ikonion though :)
 
Other global trends in this TL for the period 1180-1220:


1.Almohad advances in Iberia leading to a stronger Moorish presence in that region and a far more important "western" Islamic world in the long run. I do not want this a be a Roman TL in which the Islamic world's influence excessively wanes.

2. Turkish culture, however, will be more influenced by Orthodox Christianity and "Byzantium", especially as Turks in contact with Rhomania will often serve as soldiers, diplomats and merchants for/in close contact with the Empire.

3. The remaining Crusader states will continue the process of political and cultural "assimilation" into the Levant and will increasingly see Rhomania as their only solid ally.

I can't wait for the Mongols, and the impending Nestorian revenge!


Thanks for feedback!
 
Other global trends in this TL for the period 1180-1220:


1.Almohad advances in Iberia leading to a stronger Moorish presence in that region and a far more important "western" Islamic world in the long run. I do not want this a be a Roman TL in which the Islamic world's influence excessively wanes.

Advances of what sort should probably be written out.
 
They will be, do not worry. I am going to have a "global update" update at the conclusion of this exciting period in Alexios II's reign.
 
The Third Crusade: Part 2


Kilij Arslan had been perhaps the most successful Sultan of Ikonion in the (relatively) young polity’s history, yet in his old age was struggling to come to grips with the combined arms of Christendoms’ two emperors, Frederick Barbarossa and Bela-Alexios II Megas Komnenos. The immense German crusading army, at least, did not need to be located by scouts as they were encamped in the Sultan’s own pleasure gardens outside of Ikonion itself. After a few days of relentless pillaging of the rich environs and lower town, Frederick’s forces went to work on the powerful eastern defenses of the city. Sadly for Arslan the main body of Fredericks’ army, which unto itself outnumbered any force the Seljuqs could assemble, was not the only force pressing home the siege. The western walls of Ikonion, those closet to Roman territory, were simultaneously attacked by a combined force of 8,000 Roman and Hungarian troops under the command of Stefan Arpad, Prince of Hungary. Despite the vast forces arrayed against him, the aged Sultan led his forces in a sally after only 2 weeks of siege operations, striking against Fredericks’ siege train encamped in the gardens to the cities’ east. Heavy losses were suffered on each side, but Fredericks’ personal knights and retainers, encamped with the emperor at the center of the German lines, launched a fierce counterattack. The Turks, far less effective in the hand to hand combat of sieges than the Romans and Germans, either fell back in panic to their fortifications or fled to safer havens. The injured Sultan left the field with his elite Ghulam bodyguards, abandoning his besieged capital in the face of such a massive Christian host, and arrived safely in Cappadocian Caesarea a few days later.

Stefan Arpad and John Komnenos Vatatzes, meanwhile, attacked the Seljuq metropolis’ western walls with less gusto than the assault of the Germans’ upon those of the east. Still numbering 8,000 strong though, their forces made solid headway through the use of sappers and the fearsome Roman counter-weight trebuchets, the Helepolei or “city-takers”. The Turks, in the wake of the their costly defeat against the Germans, a defeat in which the Sultan had lost much of his field army and retreated from the city, now saw themselves hemmed in on two sides and occupying an increasingly hopeless position. Just 4 days after the fierce battle “of the Hagarenes’ Garden” Roman siege engineers began to make steady progress against the west walls, it appeared to only be a matter of time before the walls fell and a vicious sack commenced. Just as at the fall of Nicaea to the First Crusade in 1097, the Turks sought to surrender to the forces of the Basileus instead of the Franks . Arslan’s Grand Vezir, Tutush Kultamish, brokered a generous truce with the Romans by which the remaining Turkish garrison could leave in peace alongside those of the population who did not wish to remain under the expected rule of Alexios II. The Romans and Stefan Arpad promised to limit the plundering of the city—but failed to alert Frederick of their plans in full until they were already being put into action. The Roman and Hungarian troops moved quickly thru the lower city and by nightfall had even received the capitulation of the Sultan’s personal Castle—upon which battlemounts the standards of the Romans were dutifully raised. The Germans on the other side of Ikonion were furious, for they had hoped to gain much booty from the sack and plundering of this rich city of caravans. Frederick’s forces, upon seeing the Roman standards raised from the citadel and the retreat of the Turkish garrison under the escort of Alexios’ men demanded a share of spoils. The specter of conflict again arose between the Christian armies despite the mighty blow they had dealt to the Turks of Anatolia.
 
Uh oh.

This isn't something that should be a big deal, taken on its own - but some ass will bring up the "Greeks can't be trusted" card and it will explode.
 
A deal will be brokered, but the surrender of Ikonion to Alexios II will severally tarnish relations between the 2 Empires and will leave a legacy of mistrust between the Hofenstaufen and Megas Komnenoi. I'm thinking of dealing with the campaigns of Richard the Lionheart in the Holy Land in brief, as I want to focus upon Bela-Alexios efforts at reform in the 1190s. Let it suffice to say that Cyprus is going to be far better defended by the Megas Doux George Kontestefanos.
 
Quick question before I send in my next update tonight, is there a consensus on what the medieval Romans called Hungary and Hungarians in the 12th and 13th centuries?
 
I know that the term "Tourkia" had been used to denote Hungary in the 10th century, but I wonder if the Komnenians and later Rhomanians used different, albeit likely anachronistic, terms for the Hungary and Hungarian people (such as Bela-Alexios).
 
The Third Crusade, Part III







Alexios received news of the Turkish capitulation at Ikonion thru messengers sent by the alarmed Stefan Arpad, who feared that The German crusaders would soon come to blows against the Roman and Hungarian troops who had taken possession of Ikonion. The Amir of Ancyra, meanwhile, received the same news and, disheartened, outnumbered and outgunned by the Roman siege train that Alexios had been utilizing against his walls for almost a month, offered his allegiance to the Basileus as well. Leaving a small force in Ancyra in order to hold his gains in that region, Alexios marched with the main body of his field army to Ikonion in order to cement his new Doukate of Anatolikon. After almost a week of negotiations as well as continued acrimony between the two armies, a deal was struck. Frederick was offered a portion of the booty from the conquest made thus far in the campaign in order to appease his troops. Fortunately for the Romans, the crusader army as well as its royal leader was impatient to continue on its way to the Holy Land, a goal it was still far from as of yet. Alexios, for his part, reaffirmed to Frederick the Empire’s continued support for the crusading effort, and offered guides, siege engineers and the full support of the mighty imperial navy in the Levant.


Now somewhat calmed, Frederick’s forces, accompanied by a small body of Romans and Hungarians, continued upon their way to Jerusalem, soon arriving in the thriving Roman vassal principality of Armenian Cilicia, where they warmly welcomed by the locals despite the suspicion of the Roman garrisons in Seleucia and Adana. Alexios declined to continue pursuing the crusade in person, hoping as he was to take advantage of the weakness of the Anatolian Turks to restore a number of castles and towns on the plateau to Roman rule. Alexios also feared to march too far away from Constantinople, and expected continued discord on his western frontiers from the Serbs and Sicilians. For the crusaders, western stereotypes of the effeminate “Greek” were now stronger than ever despite the valor shown by Roman forces and the promise of continued assistance from the Megas Doux and his fleet. All of this mattered little though due to due the unfortunate fall that Frederick Hohenstaufen took at the Saleuph River in Cilica on his way towards Antioch and thence to the Holy Land. Though accounts differ as to the exact circumstances of the German emperors’ death, his drowning before the arrival of his vast army in Outremer was a severe blow to the hopes of the crusaders. Alexios, still encamped near Ikonion enrolling fresh Turkish troops into the imperial army, was shocked and relieved by the news, for he hoped that the death of Frederick would do much to lessen the pressure on his western foreign policy. Though some of deceased Hohenstaufen’s troops soldiered on and continued to campaign alongside the forces of Phillip Augustus and Richard the Lionhearted in the years to come, numerous German knights and men-at-arms deserted either to return home or, in some cases, to take up service with Alexios II as mercenaries (a force of 700 of them were established at Ikonion, and served the emperor faithfully throughout the remainder of his reign).


Arriving across the sea, the armies of the Kings of France and England played the “starring role” in the siege of Acre to come and did much to restore the territorial integrity of the Crusader states. Frederick Barbarossa’s march across Anatolia, however, did far more to aid the Christian cause in the East by providing Bela-Alexios with a perfect opportunity to expand into central Anatolia and improve the Roman Empire’s standing against both the Turks and the Crusaders. Already by 1192, Roman Doukates of Ikonion and Ankyra had been established, garrisoned with a mix of German, local and Latin troops in the interim while Alexios began the hard work of establishing a system of Pronoia military holding in the region. The 1190s, however, would be far too tumultuous for Alexios to achieve his goal of reclaiming the entirety of Asia Minor from the squabbling Seljuq Amirs. Still though, the “Magyar” emperor had thus far done better than many had expected upon his accession to the throne a decade before. ..
 
Nice update, but a few things:

1. Spelling for some words needs to be looked at again.

2. Would Frederick still drown in this TL?
 
Nice update, but a few things:

1. Spelling for some words needs to be looked at again.

2. Would Frederick still drown in this TL?

2. It makes just as much sense as it did in OTL, even with butterflies. Frederick's still hot, thirsty, and tired, crossing a river on an uncertain horse, wearing heavy armor . . . the works.

I think it's unlikely to happen in all possible timelines, but it's not by any means unlikelier to happen in this one than OTL.

And nice to see that the sheer workload of rebuilding the Roman position on the plateau is acknowledged by the update. :D That's one thing that really plagues writing Hohenstaufen or Byzantine timelines in this era - possibilities exist, but the effort is considerable.

And it's way too easy to make light of it.
 
2. It makes just as much sense as it did in OTL, even with butterflies. Frederick's still hot, thirsty, and tired, crossing a river on an uncertain horse, wearing heavy armor . . . the works.

I think it's unlikely to happen in all possible timelines, but it's not by any means unlikelier to happen in this one than OTL.

And nice to see that the sheer workload of rebuilding the Roman position on the plateau is acknowledged by the update. :D That's one thing that really plagues writing Hohenstaufen or Byzantine timelines in this era - possibilities exist, but the effort is considerable.

And it's way too easy to make light of it.

I can agree with the drowning part. When you say rebuild the Central Plateau, you mean reconquer it and then...? One final question, how can someone make easy light of it?
 
I can agree with the drowning part. When you say rebuild the Central Plateau, you mean reconquer it and then...? One final question, how can someone make easy light of it?

Reconquer it and then hold it. Whether you let the Turks people it or move populations around, you need it populated by by tax payers, not brigands.

And convincing the Turcomen that the former is better than the latter (one way or another) is going to be time consuming. Not impossible, but their wild and unruly way of life is profitable to them, they're not going to abandon it just because the cities are in Rhomanian hands.

As for making easy light of it, here's an example:


https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=34282

Greek Christians are still a majority in the former Seljuk lands, the minority Turks blend into the population, Hellenizing and Christianizing by about 1300 except for those who leave for Muslim states.
And it's all treated as if it would just happen as a matter of course, with no need for military campaigns to reimpose control, to swat brigands and raiders, no great investment in fortifications or roads or the Akritai - it just happens.

Now, I'm reasonably sure the author didn't intend for it to taken as if it was a mere matter of marching - the description of the stuff leading up to the final fall of Iconium seems sound enough, although I'm not sure of the description of that particular siege.

But the way the follow up is presented - that's how to make light of it.

Even if the Turks are a minority, they're a troublesome minority.
 
Reconquer it and then hold it. Whether you let the Turks people it or move populations around, you need it populated by by tax payers, not brigands.

And convincing the Turcomen that the former is better than the latter (one way or another) is going to be time consuming. Not impossible, but their wild and unruly way of life is profitable to them, they're not going to abandon it just because the cities are in Rhomanian hands.

As for making easy light of it, here's an example:


https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=34282

And it's all treated as if it would just happen as a matter of course, with no need for military campaigns to reimpose control, to swat brigands and raiders, no great investment in fortifications or roads or the Akritai - it just happens.

Now, I'm reasonably sure the author didn't intend for it to taken as if it was a mere matter of marching - the description of the stuff leading up to the final fall of Iconium seems sound enough, although I'm not sure of the description of that particular siege.

But the way the follow up is presented - that's how to make light of it.

Even if the Turks are a minority, they're a troublesome minority.

How did the Ottomans convince the Turcomans to give their formerly Nomadic life? Surely the Byzantines can do something similar? Possibly a matter of population transfers and crushing the occasional Turcoman band that starts to cause trouble?

One final question, if the Byzantines conquer the Central Plateau and Eastern Anatolia (for the sake of argument, let say Trebizond-Kars-Van-Edessa etc) in the 1180s-1240s, then how could the demographic info of those areas be in 1900, taking into account conversions, assimilation etc?
 
How did the Ottomans convince the Turcomans to give their formerly Nomadic life? Surely the Byzantines can do something similar? Possibly a matter of population transfers and crushing the occasional Turcoman band that starts to cause trouble?

Not very well or easily, actually.

And yeah, given enough time and effort, it's doable. It's the issue of emphasizing that it will take time and effort to settle (as in pacify) the Balkans and settle Anatolia (in both senses). Alexius - whether my timeline's, Sassanid's, or yours - is not going to have much opportunity to get bored or fat with all the work that has to be done.

One final question, if the Byzantines conquer the Central Plateau and Eastern Anatolia (for the sake of argument, let say Trebizond-Kars-Van-Edessa etc) in the 1180s-1240s, then how could the demographic info of those areas be in 1900, taking into account conversions, assimilation etc?

IMO, to coin a term, Digenetic Greek - Hellenized enough to count as "dipping bread in olive oil, being mostly Orthodox Christian, and quoting the classics" (the Byzantine standard for someone being close enough) - but still on a rural level what you'd expect for the border between Islam and Christianity's spheres, outside the area of the cultural heart of Byzantium, and otherwise, well, digenetic - so subtly and not so subtly different.

Not enough to be an ethnic issue, but you'd definitely spot the difference between Thrace and Cappadocia if you looked past "First language" and "Religion".

Assuming minimal additional (relative to this period) intrusions of Turks - if they do exist, they're moved around, at least - and not counting the Armenians (as I have no idea how much of the population they make up at this point).

But by 1900, if Byzantium had held the area for six centuries, it's going to be very Byzantine.
 
In this TL, the reclamation of the Anatolian plateau and eventually Armenia will occur in the "political" sense during the reigns of Alexios II, his son Peter I and his grandson Manuel II. Even after circa 1250 though, the Empire will be engaged in a careful game of "managing" Turkmen who will continue to inhabit Anatolia in force. Many will convert to Christianity, many will join the main imperial army or Taxeis, but there will be a great number of them who remain nomadic herdsmen who dabble in banditry when the Akritae are thin on patrols. The process of restoring Roman rule over Anatolia will begin with castle building and the seizing of towns like Ikonion, but it will never truly "end" in this TL. The physical geography of Anatolia and Armenia contributes to this difficulty, the situation is similar to that faced by Empire as regards the Slavs.

Remember, it took almost 4 centuries to regain the Balkans following the early 7th century crisis of imperial rule! Fortunately, the Empire is rich, fields a powerful central field army, and has much to offer the Turkmen in terms of markets for their goods (livestock) and opportunities to practice their favourite trade (serving as light horse archer soldiers).
 
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