AIM-54 Phoenix the ACWAS killer?

[Jim Smitty]

Ok this is something I been wondering about in a Conventional WWIII, how would the US/NATO deal with Beriev A-50s? From what I understood the Warsaw Pact i.e. Soviet AF planned to use MiGs with a high speed dash with missile shots. If this would had worked or not is another story. However the US nor NATO had a missile system or a way to attack Soviet Airborne Radar systems that would work. I don't see the high speed dash system working for the US/NATO. I really don't see an F-117 Red Storm Rising mission either. Those are really ground attack aircraft.

So could you in theory take an AIM-54 put a Anti-radiation seeker head on it and hot wire a couple F-15s to fire them. Possibly modified for a long range shot beyond 100 miles? The Mainstays wouldn't even know they were under attack till missiles started going off.

Is there a reason the US nor NATO didn't go down this line of R&D? Because I see this as a way to give NATO something close to in the opening minutes of the cold war going hot.

 

[Dlg123]

I don't know, good question.

EDIT:First. Also I added a period where I forgot to put one.

 

[SsgtC]

It's possible you may see a Squadron of F-14s in Europe if NATO gets enough advanced warning. If possible, fly them in at night, stick em in hangers and leave em there until things are just about to kick off, then scramble the Toms, and when they get the word, the Soviets gets a nice surprise when they get lit up by AWG-9 radars. Each -14 can carry 6 AIM-54s operating off land. Figure that bags NATO 3 AWACS each of they're close enough together. If not, figure one AWAC and maybe one or two MiG-25/31s if the Soviets try gunning for the NATO AWACs

 

[Jim Smitty]

It's possible you may see a Squadron of F-14s in Europe if NATO gets enough advanced warning. If possible, fly them in at night, stick em in hangers and leave em there until things are just about to kick off, then scramble the Toms, and when they get the word, the Soviets gets a nice surprise when they get lit up by AWG-9 radars. Each -14 can carry 6 AIM-54s operating off land. Figure that bags NATO 3 AWACS each of they're close enough together. If not, figure one AWAC and maybe one or two MiG-25/31s if the Soviets try gunning for the NATO AWACs

The main problem with basing the Tomcats in Europe is their AWG-9 radar is damn noticeable as there really isn't anything else like that. Once you go active with the AWG-9 everyone is going to know it. What I was wanting to do is stick the AIM-54s on F-15 Eagles but with the AIM-54 radar seeker heads replaced with an Anti-radiation seeker head. Fire those, the Mainstays would even know they were under attack till the missiles were going off. By then its too late to get out of the way. With say four AIM-54/HARM missiles per a squadron of 15s you just removed Soviet airborne radar and command and control with them wondering what the fuck just happened.

 

[SsgtC]

The main problem with basing the Tomcats in Europe is their AWG-9 radar is damn noticeable as there really isn't anything else like that. Once you go active with the AWG-9 everyone is going to know it. What I was wanting to do is stick the AIM-54s on F-15 Eagles but with the AIM-54 radar seeker heads replaced with an Anti-radiation seeker head. Fire those, the Mainstays would even know they were under attack till the missiles were going off. By then its too late to get out of the way. With say four AIM-54/HARM missiles per a squadron of 15s you just removed Soviet airborne radar and command and control with them wondering what the fuck just happened.

Here's the thing, the AIM-54 was only compatible with two radars. The AWG-9 and the APG-71 (which was an upgraded AWG-9). The idea I had, was the Toms don't fly regular patrols. You fly them in at night, radars off, their transponder codes set to ID them as F-15s. Once on the ground, they're parked in hangers to keep them out of sight. Just before things go hot, you send up the Toms. Say 2 Tomcats and 2 Eagles per flight. The Eagles use their radar to throw off Soviet intercepts. Then, when everything is in position, and the Toms have been vectored by NATO AWACS to be 100-120nm out, they light off their AWG-9s and send their -54s on their way at Mach 5. And bye-bye AWACS

Edit: the issue with trying to use the AIM-54 without the AWG-9 is it relies on mid course guidance as a semi-active radar homing missile until it is within 11 miles of the target before going active. I don't think an anti-radiation seeker can stay locked on target from over 100 miles away

 

[Jim Smitty]

Here's the thing, the AIM-54 was only compatible with two radars. The AWG-9 and the APG-71 (which was an upgraded AWG-9). The idea I had, was the Toms don't fly regular patrols. You fly them in at night, radars off, their transponder codes set to ID them as F-15s. Once on the ground, they're parked in hangers to keep them out of sight. Just before things go hot, you send up the Toms. Say 2 Tomcats and 2 Eagles per flight. The Eagles use their radar to throw off Soviet intercepts. Then, when everything is in position, and the Toms have been vectored by NATO AWACS to be 100-120nm out, they light off their AWG-9s and send their -54s on their way at Mach 5. And bye-bye AWACS

An Operation Bolo like mission could work, but that leaves the USN short a squadron of 14s. Its one of the reasons I'm trying to figure out if a anti-radiation seeker can stay locked on at a distance of 100 miles plus. This way it doesn't take away from the USN and its an easy add on to the -15s as the 54/HARM variant doesn't need AWG-9 radars.

Edit: the issue with trying to use the AIM-54 without the AWG-9 is it relies on mid course guidance as a semi-active radar homing missile until it is within 11 miles of the target before going active. I don't think an anti-radiation seeker can stay locked on target from over 100 miles away

I though with the power of the Mainstay radar you could ride that into the Mainstay? Because I figure those are fairly power and special radar signals that could be hunted down at distance.

 

[Alanith]

An Operation Bolo like mission could work, but that leaves the USN short a squadron of 14s. Its one of the reasons I'm trying to figure out if a anti-radiation seeker can stay locked on at a distance of 100 miles plus. This way it doesn't take away from the USN and its an easy add on to the -15s as the 54/HARM variant doesn't need AWG-9 radars.

I though with the power of the Mainstay radar you could ride that into the Mainstay? Because I figure those are fairly power and special radar signals that could be hunted down at distance.

The USN has more F-14 squadrons then carriers though, and worst come to worst you could just take one off a carrier down for maintainence or whatever.

 

[Riain]

I'd suggest that it wouldn't be to hard to get some F14 missions laid on, the USN usually had a couple of carriers in the western Med and another couple in the NW Atlantic.

However I think these aircraft would be targeted on the ground by GLCMs, F117s or F111s.

 

[Ato]

I don't see the high speed dash system working for the US/NATO.

Why not?

NATO had a fairly large inventory of medium range semi active AAMs and numerous high speed aircraft to carry them. It is likely that they didn't pursue long range air to air anti-radaition missiles for that reason, it is a niche role to engage a threat that they instead planned to counter in much the same way as the Soviets did.

The combination of Tornado ADV and Skyflash in particular seems well suited to this role.

 

[Jim Smitty]

Why not?

NATO had a fairly large inventory of medium range semi active AAMs and numerous high speed aircraft to carry them. It is likely that they didn't pursue long range air to air anti-radaition missiles for that reason, it is a niche role to engage a threat that they instead planned to counter in much the same way as the Soviets did.

The combination of Tornado ADV and Skyflash in particular seems well suited to this role.

Honestly I don't ever see a high speed dash as workable. Against ACAWS like aircraft its asking for a shit load of destroyed or damaged aircraft and dead pilots and WSOs and more as PWs. The skyflash as a range of 28 miles, and for it to really work well you need to get closer than the max range missile. Say 15 to 20 miles. Get that close is a suicide run as I would bet my next paycheck that the Soviet ACAWS would be pulling fighters off other targets to hit those Tornadoes as well as trying to get away at the same time. Its the whole reason I can't see NATO green lighting something like a high speed dash to take out Soviet Mainstays.

Its why I see a niche role 54 here as a much better choice than going for a high speed dash. You do that you are playing the Soviet game, i.e. numbers against numbers. NATO can't afford to get into that kind of pissing match with the Warsaw Pact.

 

[sloreck]

In 1990 the USSR had about 40 Mainstay aircraft, and a total of about 60-65 tankers of all sorts. The Mainstay went in to service in the early to mid-1980s, prior to then the USSR had no AWACS equivalent. Depending on when in the 1980s a war would happen the number of Mainstays could be as few as zero and as many as 40.

The F-14s need not turn on targeting radars until they are cued that an AWACS is within range. If properly cued they can turn it on, located the target (a really big return) and fire almost before the Mainstay knows they are in the neighborhood. Odds are 2 missiles per aircraft ought to do it. Some Mainstays will be shot down, once the Soviets twig to the situation they will have to keep their AWACS further back, given the F-14s will fire from 100 miles away, fighter escorts won't be helpful. Shooting down some of these AWACS as well as forcing the Soviets to keep their remaining assets further back will be quite useful for NATO.

 

[SsgtC]

An Operation Bolo like mission could work, but that leaves the USN short a squadron of 14s. Its one of the reasons I'm trying to figure out if a anti-radiation seeker can stay locked on at a distance of 100 miles plus. This way it doesn't take away from the USN and its an easy add on to the -15s as the 54/HARM variant doesn't need AWG-9 radars.

I though with the power of the Mainstay radar you could ride that into the Mainstay? Because I figure those are fairly power and special radar signals that could be hunted down at distance.

Unless the war lasts longer than a year, the US will likely have at least one carrier down for a Midlife Overhaul for the entire war. That alone frees up two squadrons of Tomcats. Not to mention, in the 80s, -14s were still being produced. Grumman could likely make enough so that the Navy wouldn't feel the shortfall.

As for staying locked on from over 100 miles, keep in mind, HARMs sometime had issues hitting permanent ground based radars. Relying on one to hit a Mainstay moving at 300+ MPH? I wouldn't want to count on it.

 

[Archibald]

Please change the thread title. It's AWACS.

Sounds a little acwasrd

 

[Ato]

Honestly I don't ever see a high speed dash as workable. Against ACAWS like aircraft its asking for a shit load of destroyed or damaged aircraft and dead pilots and WSOs and more as PWs. The skyflash as a range of 28 miles, and for it to really work well you need to get closer than the max range missile. Say 15 to 20 miles. Get that close is a suicide run as I would bet my next paycheck that the Soviet ACAWS would be pulling fighters off other targets to hit those Tornadoes as well as trying to get away at the same time. Its the whole reason I can't see NATO green lighting something like a high speed dash to take out Soviet Mainstays.

Its why I see a niche role 54 here as a much better choice than going for a high speed dash. You do that you are playing the Soviet game, i.e. numbers against numbers. NATO can't afford to get into that kind of pissing match with the Warsaw Pact.

I think you are ascribing a casulty aversion that NATO didnt really possess. Just look at the A-10 units, which were essentially considered a disposable asset that would be expended over two weeks as what amounts to manned cruise missiles, in an effort slow the soviets from reaching the rhine before REFORGER convoys made it acriss the Atlantic.
There were not many Soviet Awacs aircraft, and if it was decided that the needed be taken down, I doubt air commanders woud have had much hesitation in sending interceptors on high risk missions to splash them.

Unless the war lasts longer than a year, the US will likely have at least one carrier down for a Midlife Overhaul for the entire war. That alone frees up two squadrons of Tomcats. Not to mention, in the 80s, -14s were still being produced. Grumman could likely make enough so that the Navy wouldn't feel the shortfall.

As for staying locked on from over 100 miles, keep in mind, HARMs sometime had issues hitting permanent ground based radars. Relying on one to hit a Mainstay moving at 300+ MPH? I wouldn't want to count on it.

HARM have to deal with ground clutter, the phoenix would not. The Mainstay might be moving but it is fat and unmanuverable, exactly the type of target AIM-54 was developed to kill.

 

[steamboy]

The problem with a high speed dash is that its in essence suicide. You're throwing aircraft at the defences of the AWACS in the hope that you can get one jet in range long enough to volley missiles. This is 'okay' for the Soviets as they have the Jets to throw at NATO if they have to and have raw numbers on their side if they were to do it. NATO don't have that and you can bet a Mainstay would be orbiting over a heavy number of SAMs with its own interceptors and escorts nearby. The TLDR is that NATO could not accept the losses.

I do recall the Soviets had an earlier AWACs called the Moss but it was based on a turboprop and it was basically shite and the Mainstay had lots of technical issues that really meant they were not fully working until the 90's so the actual number of active Mainstays may be a lot lower.

As for how to get them, I really don't know. Perhaps you could use a stealth fighter, have it fly to one at night, and drop a sidewinder out of its bomb bay or something, I really don't know outside of putting Tommy's on the ground or flying them off a USN carrier.

 

[Riain]

Won't the EF111 jam the Soviet radars into ineffectiveness anyway? I once read that 3 Ravens would cripple all Warsaw Pact radars in western Europe.

 

[Panica]

I would think that modified AMRAAM would be better fit. Better to modifie somethink which sticks on F-15 anyway. How ever f-15 coudl have been made to shoot AIM-54 so then it would be much easier.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

It's possible you may see a Squadron of F-14s in Europe if NATO gets enough advanced warning. If possible, fly them in at night, stick em in hangers and leave em there until things are just about to kick off, then scramble the Toms, and when they get the word, the Soviets gets a nice surprise when they get lit up by AWG-9 radars. Each -14 can carry 6 AIM-54s operating off land. Figure that bags NATO 3 AWACS each of they're close enough together. If not, figure one AWAC and maybe one or two MiG-25/31s if the Soviets try gunning for the NATO AWACs

I sure hope they're not shooting down NATO AWACs!

 

[Ato]

I would think that modified AMRAAM would be better fit. Better to modifie somethink which sticks on F-15 anyway. How ever f-15 coudl have been made to shoot AIM-54 so then it would be much easier.

AMRAAM didnt arrive till the 90s. Premier NATO AAMs if the 80s were Phoenix, Sparrow, and Skyflash.

 

[SsgtC]

HARM have to deal with ground clutter, the phoenix would not. The Mainstay might be moving but it is fat and unmanuverable,

Exactly, that's why I suggested using standard AIM-54Cs. Not the bastard love child of a Phoenix and a HARM.