AHQ: Kingdom of Frisia

the title says most of it.

I am thinking about a TL about a Great Frisian Kingdom.
what is the earliest most possible date to do so??

to make thins interesting : I prefer to keep them generaly Pagan

iff is means "No Franks" how do I do that.
(I was thinking about replacing them with a Batavian kingdom and a stronger post-Roman Gaul)

Possible??
please let me know:D
 
A pagan Frisian nation would surely be more of a target for say the Holy Roman Empire than a christian Frisian nation.
 
First of all the Frisians of Roman Times weren't completely the same as the Frisians of Frankish times.

Secondly there was a Frisian kingdom from 600 - 734, which comprised the the coastal areas of the Low Countries and Northern Germany to the Weser river.

Finally this reminds me of the title duke of Frisia, which was given to a Viking leader by emperor Charles the Fat.
 
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First of all the Frisians of Roman Times weren't completely the same as the Frisians of Frankish times.

Secondly there was a Frisian kingdom from 600 - 734, which comprised the the coastal areas of the Low Countries and Northern Germany to the Weser river.

Finally this reminds me of the title duke of Frisia, which was given to a Viking leader by emperor Charles the Fat.

Indeed I am aware of all three of the facts. I am born in the province of Drenthe, bordering modern day Friesland in the Netherlands.

I am looking for a way to keep the Frisian kingdom alive, and maybe even expand. I was playing with the Idea to eliminate the Franks from an early stage, either by forced migration or anny other reason.
in the abcence of the Franks, I believe the Frisians could ahve a chance to become the power of their region.

I just dont know how I am going to do it:confused:
 

yourworstnightmare

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By eliminating the Franks, you pretty much create a butterfly wave that can allow anything to happen in Western Europe. (Although Visigothic south Gaul would be a quite realistic outcome).
 
I don't know how you boost the Frisians, but if the Franks fall into disunity after Clovis (or earlier, but he's the first ruler I can think of by name) and never (well, for long enough for Frisia to rise, at least) form more than bickering, squabbling petty kingdoms - then Frisia has a reasonable chance.

Maybe have a prolonged succession dispute after the Merovingians die out, which if it happens early enough means they never properly bind the Franks together. That ought to do it.

Meanwhile, none of the other Christian states are really in a position to do anything to Frisia for a long while. The Anglo-Saxon kings are too busy on Britain. The Danish kings converted even later than Frisia OTL I think. Iberia's Christian rulers are on the other end of Western Europe.

So...the real question is how to make a strong kingdom here.
 

yourworstnightmare

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Who knows, up for grabs I guess. Or perhaps some kind of Gallo-Roman kingdom can survive, or some tribe that the Franks defeated historically create an empire there.
 
Who knows, up for grabs I guess. Or perhaps some kind of Gallo-Roman kingdom can survive, or some tribe that the Franks defeated historically create an empire there.

Although I have to say that I don't like the idea of eliminating the Franks (since I'm from the 'Frankish part' of the Netherlands):p;), maybe the Franks are less successful? What about the Franks ruling Austrasia and Neustria, but fail to expand further and lose control of their territories North of the Rhine and Meuse?

IIRC Theoderic the Great ruled the Ostrogoths and Visigoths and Burgundy was in their sphere of influence, if the Goths remain this strong, then the southward expansion of the Franks will be halted.
 
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Although I have to say that I don't like the idea of eliminating the Franks (since I'm from the 'Frankish part' of the Netherlands):p;), maybe the Franks are less successful? What about the Franks ruling Austrasia and Neustria, but fail to expand further and lose control of their territories North of the Rhine and Meuse?

IIRC Theoderic the Great ruled the Ostrogoths and Visigoths and Burgundy was in their sphere of influence, if the Goths remain this strong, then the southward expansion of the Franks will be halted.

a frank a frank a frank!!!!!:D
just kidding, from which part??
I am from the north;), from Drenthe

but back on topic: I doubt the total elimination of the franks would be likely annyway, so to create an "expansion restriction" would indeed be a more likely outcome.
they would have trouble enough with the Bretons and the invading Thuringians then to make an attempt to conquer Frisia.

the idea is finally getting somewhere, but what about the Franks being Catholic and the Visigoths Arians? and what about the Burgundians and the Allemans??
 
I'm from the south of the Netherlands North Brabant so historically Austrasia/Lotharingia/Brabant;).

IOTL Clovis conquered Neustria in 486, Alemannia/Swabia in 502 and Aquitaine in 507; I can't believe I suggest this;), but about Clovis fails to gain Aquitaine. This would leave a stronger Visigothic kingdom and due to religious differs there always remains the potential for a conflict, which luckily for the Frisians could draw away even more attention from them (as long as they don't raid to much:p).
 
I'm from the south of the Netherlands North Brabant so historically Austrasia/Lotharingia/Brabant;).

(wat in principe inhoudt dat ik gewoon is Nederlands kan praten..maar toch even moet laten, omdat de meesten op het forum het waarschijnlijk niet gaan snappen:D

IOTL Clovis conquered Neustria in 486, Alemannia/Swabia in 502 and Aquitaine in 507; I can't believe I suggest this;), but about Clovis fails to gain Aquitaine. This would leave a stronger Visigothic kingdom and due to religious differs there always remains the potential for a conflict, which luckily for the Frisians could draw away even more attention from them (as long as they don't raid to much:p).

how likely is it that Clovis would lose the war over Aquitaine???

I believe Theoderik of the Ostrogoths could intervine perhaps??:confused:
 
IOTL Clovis killed the Visigothic king Alaric and it also appears to be the case that Visigothic nobles weren't too loyal due to internal unrest. Furthermore IOTL the Ostrogoths eventually intervened, which led to the fact that Septimania (roughly modern day Languedoc-Roussillon) stayed Visigothic.

Maybe if Alaric survives he can gather enough support to resist Clovis' army and end this conflict under the terms of a status quo ante bellum, especially when the Ostrogoths enter the conflict.
 
IOTL Clovis killed the Visigothic king Alaric and it also appears to be the case that Visigothic nobles weren't too loyal due to internal unrest. Furthermore IOTL the Ostrogoths eventually intervened, which led to the fact that Septimania (roughly modern day Languedoc-Roussillon) stayed Visigothic.

Maybe if Alaric survives he can gather enough support to resist Clovis' army and end this conflict under the terms of a status quo ante bellum, especially when the Ostrogoths enter the conflict.

that would depend on how strong the Visigoths where and how they could defeat the franks iff the nobles werent that loyal:confused:
 
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