AHQ: If Ming China desired to conquer the New World, can it do it faster than Spain?

If the Chinese wanted to conquer the New World, can it do it faster than Spain?

  • Ming China can do it faster than Spain.

    Votes: 23 25.8%
  • Ming China can do as fast as Spain.

    Votes: 8 9.0%
  • Ming China will conquer slower than Spain.

    Votes: 58 65.2%

  • Total voters
    89
Just a question, let’s disregard China’s inwardness and it’s culture that disfavours overseas colonialism and focus on this question.

if the Chinese were as/more eager than the Spanish to conquer the New World, could it do it as fast? Let’s say the Ming discover the New World sometime around the 15th century.
 
the biggest problem is which way they are going are they following the coast of Siberia and to Alaska or are they going across the ocean because it will impact the speed and or if they do decide to conquer the new world
 
the biggest problem is which way they are going are they following the coast of Siberia and to Alaska or are they going across the ocean because it will impact the speed and or if they do decide to conquer the new world
With the motivation yes they can do it and Chinese ships could certainly go the faster route. Disregarding motives for the moment China could easily take the New World, maintaining control afterwards not so easy though.
 
With the motivation yes they can do it and Chinese ships could certainly go the faster route. Disregarding motives for the moment China could easily take the New World, maintaining control afterwards not so easy though.

A wish to do so, does not correlate to the knowledge and skills to do so. How would the Ming officials know the correct route to take? This sort of issue would need to be decided in the tl prior to.
 
I don't get the point of going after the Old World specifically, it reaches levels of ASB to have a outward expansionary Ming that somehow overlooks Taiwan, Ryukyu, Philippines, Indonesia and the Pacific.
 
Even if Ming China would be much more open instead inward turned and isolationist there would be still few of desire go colonial adventures. Them hadn't any good reason do that. China had already good trade connections and enough of prosperity that it had not motivation do that. And Pacific is quiet difficult to across when they are going from East Asia to North America. Perhaps it could work if they follow coastal Siberia and Alaska but even that is long route and not much of motivation. Furthermore that would be quiet expensive. And there is good potential colonising places closer like Philippines and Indonesia. So even if China would go colonailist which is IMO pretty implausible even with cosmopolitan Ming iti would be slow process.
 
This forum has never quite realised that the Pacific is really, really big, and that there's nothing much of interest on the other side if you don't know that California is.
 
Probably a lot slower, as the short way across the Pacific (along Siberia/Alaska) goes through thousands of km of icy wasteland, which is not very enticing, and the long way (straight across) is just really, really long.
 
Zheng He did some incredible feats of "showing the flag" for China, but he never pulled off quite what Cortes or Pizarro did. He never decapitated a major empire in one stroke like those two men did. China never had lightning strike twice like happened with the Aztecs and Inca which solidified Spain in the New World (if their ongoing violent dominion on Hispaniola against the Taino wasn't enough).

We know the Chinese strategy was to have merchants and such settle in trading centers. At times, they could have major pull like in Lanfang (Borneo). But China absolutely won't go for the decapitation strike like Cortes or Pizarro did. It's far too risky. If they didn't too much mind that Japan was calling itself an empire (and very rarely its ruler paying tribute as the King of Japan), then they probably wouldn't care too much about the Aztecs or Inca not paying proper tribute to the Son of Heaven. Based on that alone, the answer is hell no, China can never conquer the New World as fast as Spain.

This forum has never quite realised that the Pacific is really, really big, and that there's nothing much of interest on the other side if you don't know that California is.

Nope, there's endless barbarians to fight for their furs and reindeer herds which fade into more endless barbarians to fight for their furs (although they don't have as big of reindeer herds). Unfortunately, furs are stereotypical barbarian clothing in East Asian culture, although antler velvet for traditional medicine might be a decent compensation. The biggest problem is that if China wanted to subdue endless hordes of northern barbarians (which the American Indians they meet will be classed under), they already have Siberia, and they don't need a navy to do so. That's why I think in the "East Asians on the West Coast" question, the Japanese are just as likely (even though they're mentioned far less). They just need to solve internal issues, subdue Hokkaido, Karafuto, Chishima, and go up to Kamchatka and go to North America from there. Fishing, isolation, antler velvet, and even furs might be a reason.
 
China would focus more on the Asian/Pacific and later "maybe" do something in the Americas. That's assuming Japan remains isolationist after unification and doesn't align themselves with say European powers to counter China, much in the same way England and other did toward Spain's Empire.
 
This forum has never quite realised that the Pacific is really, really big, and that there's nothing much of interest on the other side if you don't know that California is.

Even if you do know, what are the incentives for the Ming China? It is quite obvious that a huge open and sparsely populated space will be very difficult for administration to control (and this goes for the potential Chinese settlers as well) and there was not too much there the government would want to get.

From this perspective, even the Aleutian Islands are more attractive: in OTL China (admittedly, in the XVIII century) was one of the major consumers of the sea otter's fur.
 
Even if you do know, what are the incentives for the Ming China? It is quite obvious that a huge open and sparsely populated space will be very difficult for administration to control (and this goes for the potential Chinese settlers as well) and there was not too much there the government would want to get.

From this perspective, even the Aleutian Islands are more attractive: in OTL China (admittedly, in the XVIII century) was one of the major consumers of the sea otter's fur.
Plus China is going to find quite better places to flood, like Taiwan, Malaysia or Philippines(the population was pretty small AFAIK), even if just to secure the trade routes to India and Middle East.
 
There is literally zero reason for them to explore to the East. Prevailing winds are also against them. Unless they know of Aztec gold somehow, they would never even try. If there is somehow willingess for overseas exploration and expansion for whatever reason, they could go for Africa and India, but more realistically Indochina.
 
Theoretically, since they have the men and resources and a very centralized government, if they really wanted, they could do it faster. But they didn't want to.

(In Gurps Alternate Earth 2, Ming China first has to battle Portuguese "pirates"/explorers, makes Portugal their colony, which leads to a fight with Spain, so they learn about Mexico and the gold there, make it a colony too...)
 
China was already a big empire in this time period. If it wants to expand any further, it would probably be far more interested in Southeast Asia or nearby Pacific Islands; rather than North or South America, two very distant, mysterious continents that weren't very well known or understood yet.
 
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I find this obsession with China colonizing the Americas a bit odd. There is very little interest on TLs of Chinese colonization of SE Asia which was far more likely. Even going for Australia would not be nearly as far fetched and yet that hardly ever attract discussion. There was once a very good TL about the failed Mongol invasion of Indonesia - which leads the defeated Mongols to sail for... not Australia but North America...
 

Lusitania

Donor
Disregarding interest and desire the fact that the Chinese would have zero knowledge of the currents and that the easiest way to get to North America was to sail north then hugging Siberia and Alaska coast but that would not work to return. So chances are the first ships would not return or return telling stories of wilderness and barbarians.

What we think the chances of Columbus getting funding if he had landed along the Labrador coast. Frozen tundra and forests. Not the way to India I am sure he would of been thrown out if Spanish court. No he got funding because they thought it was a tropical island on the way to India and orient.

The currents back from North America go east to west just north of equator a very long long way without spotting islands and land. Even if the ships did finally return they would not of returned with tales of riches or gold but only wilderness and barbarians.
 
The short answer is yes. Ming had huge population. Government promised poor farmers free ship tickets and free land. Thousands farmers would sign up. Within 100 years, British Columbia and Washington States would be full of Chinese settlers.
 
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