AHQ: Harold Godwinson's sons by Edith Swannesha

IOTL, Harold Godwinson's more danico marriage to Edith Swannesha (or Swan-neck) produced three sons and two daughters, but was not recognised by the clergy. After his death, his common law wife, Edith of Mercia, gave birth to twin sons, Harold and Ulf.

My main questions are:

1. IOTL, Harold and Edith Swannesha's daughters were married off, but was there any recorded "concern" about their legitimacy, due to the nature of their parents' marriage?

2. In an England before or with a Norman conquest, would Harold Godwinson's sons by Edith of Mercia have taken precedence over Edith Swannesha's sons, Godwin, Edmund and Magnus, when it came to inheritence of land and titles?

Any thoughts?
 
My tuppence:

With regards Q1 - I've never read anything that raises 'concern' about their legitimacy.

With regards Q2 - I don't think there were any 'hard' rules re. inheritance. I think Harold may have promoted his sons by Edith of Mercia in terms of them being athelings, said promotion may or may not be at the expense (ie land and titles) of his older sons.

As for the first marriage, it was not so much non-recognition by the clergy (which the devout Harold could have swiftly remedied) but a question of power. Swanneck couldn't bring as much as Edith of Mercia in terms of Harold consolidating his hold on the throne.
 
I'm not aware of any concerns over their legitimacy. Recognition by the father (and his cohort) counted a lot more than church recognition over a marriage. Cohabitation and children could be thought of as a civil marriage with the Church just providing a blessing.
Any recognised son of a noble was entitled to a share of the inheritance and contested Wills were a thing in the litigious Anglo-Saxon world since a noble could leave rather little to some over others.
Titles were less associated with inheritance and usually in the gift of the King, they were rather more duty related than the entitlement of Plantagenet times.
 
I'm not aware of any concerns over their legitimacy. Recognition by the father (and his cohort) counted a lot more than church recognition over a marriage. Cohabitation and children could be thought of as a civil marriage with the Church just providing a blessing.
Any recognised son of a noble was entitled to a share of the inheritance and contested Wills were a thing in the litigious Anglo-Saxon world since a noble could leave rather little to some over others.
Titles were less associated with inheritance and usually in the gift of the King, they were rather more duty related than the entitlement of Plantagenet times.
Also keep in mind this is pre-Tridentine law, so even establishing canonical marriages could be an exercise in futility.
 
Okay then. Then a few final questions:

3. If legitimacy was more a matter of recognition by the father than by the church, would Harold have caused a scandal if he decided to marry one of his daughters, maybe Gytha, to Edgar the Atheling, and two of his sons, say Godwin and Edmund, to Edgar's sisters?

4. Even without said marriages, would their status have affected Godwin, Edmund or Magnus' chances of obtaining the English throne?

5. I've read on this forum and elsewhere that Harold's kingship was only meant to last either until the Norwegian and Norman invasions were defeated or until Harold's death, and then the crown would pass to Edgar. Is there any truth to either? The Godwinsons were pretty ambitious, and Harold would have either one or two great victories under his belt in the aftermath.

Any thoughts? Thanks for the responses so far.
 

Kaze

Banned
Then there is the power of the Witenagemot - the Anglo-Saxon version of a (prototype) parliament - If they determined that son xyz was an utter moron, the Witen might in theory elect his younger half-brother as king.

The Witen might look onto a marriage between the children of Gytha to Atheling with some disdain at first, but eventually accept the marriage match selecting their children as king.
 
My thrippence:

With regards Q3 - good question, I have no idea. Who would be scandalized by such a series of marriages?
Coincidentally my forthcoming TL has a marriage between Edgar and Gunnhild, Gytha still marries Vladimir of Kiev as per OTL.

With regards Q4 and Q5 - Supposedly the Witan selects the king but of course selection rests to larger or lesser degree on power. As to who would succeed Harold Godwinesson (in this particular scenario), Edgar or one of Harold's five known sons? What was Harold's succession plan? Who has the strength? Who wants it? Or should I say who wants it bad enough to take the country into civil war?
 
For Question 4 and 5, I suppose it could do with how Harm,d leaves the throne - either dying naturally, abdicating when he thinks Edgar is old enough, or being assassinated by those who think he's becoming too powerful.

I personally see some similarities between this situation and the situation with Byzantine Emperors Constantine VII and Romanos I Lekapenos. Romanos took over Constantine's regency from his mother, had himself crowned senior emperor and married his eldest daughter to Constantine. He also made his eldest and most competent son, Christopher, co-emperor, but when Christopher died in 931, his brothers feared Romanos would make Constantine VII his heir instead of them, so they deposed him, and were themselves deposed in favour of Constantine.
 
3. If legitimacy was more a matter of recognition by the father than by the church, would Harold have caused a scandal if he decided to marry one of his daughters, maybe Gytha, to Edgar the Atheling, and two of his sons, say Godwin and Edmund, to Edgar's sisters?
Scandalous isn't the right word.
Foolish perhaps. Marriages between powerful families are about connections and the rewards they bring.

4. Even without said marriages, would their status have affected Godwin, Edmund or Magnus' chances of obtaining the English throne?
Bloodlines were important but not essential to becoming King of England else Harold wouldn't have got a look in.
If Harold had strengthened his family's position enough then his favoured son is likely to succeed him as king. If he hasn't then Edgar or his son have a chance.
A strong Anglo-Saxon king would have no difficulty having his son succeed him.
A weak one, albeit strong enough to stay king, would need his son to have good enough connections to influence the Witan or be demonstrably worthy.

5. I've read on this forum and elsewhere that Harold's kingship was only meant to last either until the Norwegian and Norman invasions were defeated or until Harold's death, and then the crown would pass to Edgar. Is there any truth to either? The Godwinsons were pretty ambitious, and Harold would have either one or two great victories under his belt in the aftermath.
There's nothing to suggest this. Unless you're meaning that Harold's position is dependent on him playing the game of thrones well enough, which is true of most rulers of the day. But see also my previous answer.
 
Scandalous isn't the right word.
Foolish perhaps. Marriages between powerful families are about connections and the rewards they bring.

Bloodlines were important but not essential to becoming King of England else Harold wouldn't have got a look in.
If Harold had strengthened his family's position enough then his favoured son is likely to succeed him as king. If he hasn't then Edgar or his son have a chance.
A strong Anglo-Saxon king would have no difficulty having his son succeed him.
A weak one, albeit strong enough to stay king, would need his son to have good enough connections to influence the Witan or be demonstrably worthy.


There's nothing to suggest this. Unless you're meaning that Harold's position is dependent on him playing the game of thrones well enough, which is true of most rulers of the day. But see also my previous answer.

I'd reckon there's not much foolish about the most powerful family in England trying to connect themselves to the most prestigious family in England.

As for Harold, what I'm suggesting is, unless I'm overestimating the power of the witengamot, there doesn't seem to be much keeping him from doing to the House of Wessex what the Carolingians did to the Merovigians, and then what the Capetians did to the Carolingians.
 
I'd reckon there's not much foolish about the most powerful family in England trying to connect themselves to the most prestigious family in England.
It rather depends how much prestige at the specific time and whether Harold could get better deals elsewhere. That's why I said it wouldn't be scandalous but could be foolish.

As for Harold, what I'm suggesting is, unless I'm overestimating the power of the witengamot, there doesn't seem to be much keeping him from doing to the House of Wessex what the Carolingians did to the Merovigians, and then what the Capetians did to the Carolingians.
Well no, that's how the game of thrones operated at the time. Look at how the House of Wessex leveraged themselves, how the House of Denmark came to power, and how all the kings' successions went.
 
It rather depends how much prestige at the specific time and whether Harold could get better deals elsewhere. That's why I said it wouldn't be scandalous but could be foolish.


Well no, that's how the game of thrones operated at the time. Look at how the House of Wessex leveraged themselves, how the House of Denmark came to power, and how all the kings' successions went.

I'm not sure there were any better deals elsewhere. Most other eligible bachelorettes are either already married, betrothed to someone else, too young or too closely-related. Whereas Margaret and Christina of Wessex are of age, canonically far apart from the Godwinsons and immediately available.
 
I'm not sure there were any better deals elsewhere. Most other eligible bachelorettes are either already married, betrothed to someone else, too young or too closely-related. Whereas Margaret and Christina of Wessex are of age, canonically far apart from the Godwinsons and immediately available.
Then why would you think it scandalous?
 
Top