AHC : Yuan/Northern Yuan reconquest of China

How would Yuan dynasty/Northern Yuan dynasty would be able to retake at least part of China (bonus points if they can take it all) after that Ming Dynasty is established; and being considered as a legitimate dynasty by later Chinese scholars, longer than Yuan were.
 
You also need to prevent the rise of the Oirats.The Borjigin clan was hardly in control of Mongolia during the time period.Their authority was usurped by the Oirats.
 
The Yuan has to concede rights to the Northern Chinese, even at cost to de-mongolize themselves. Better losing Mongolia to the Oirats but concentrate all the efforts to save the best part of their Empire.
 
The Yuan has to concede rights to the Northern Chinese, even at cost to de-mongolize themselves. Better losing Mongolia to the Oirats but concentrate all the efforts to save the best part of their Empire.

I think otherwise. The Northern Yuan must try to consolidate Mongolia proper, even at the cost of losing China temporarily, just like Zhu Yuanzhang spent most of his early career fighting Chen Youliang and Zhang Shicheng before turning on Yuan.
 
It was not impossible, but the Ming launched a series of expeditions against the Northern Yuan to prevent exactly that.
What could prevent Ming do to so, or at least to make their attempt unsuccessful? Would a Northern Yuan victory in Mongolia directly lead to reconquer parts of Northern China?

You also need to prevent the rise of the Oirats.The Borjigin clan was hardly in control of Mongolia during the time period.Their authority was usurped by the Oirats.

How do you think it would happen?
 
What could prevent Ming do to so, or at least to make their attempt unsuccessful? Would a Northern Yuan victory in Mongolia directly lead to reconquer parts of Northern China?
The Ming clearly identified the Northern Yuan as a threat and was hellbent on eradicating it, at least during the early parts of the dynasty.In the dynasty's early days,they also have a lot of Mongol auxiliaries in it's service to counter Mongol advantage in cavalry.It really depends on the scale of defeat of the Ming Chinese.I highly doubt it would be easy,given that early Ming was dominated by a lot of highly competent leaders.As for reconquering parts of China,I see it as unlikely considering the amount of resources used towards fortifying the border.The Battle of Tumu showed that even in the highly unlikely event that the emperor's captured and the entire Ming field army got completely wiped out,there's no way the Mongols could have conquered Ming when the economy's still running and the government still held legitimacy.

I do wonder though if the Mongols can exploit the civil war between Jianwen and his uncle Zhu Di (who later became Emperor Yongle).
How do you think it would happen?
Others will have to answer this because it's out of my league.

Timur manages to live long enough to invade china, maybe.

Would weaken the Ming and open the door for a yuan comeback.

Most unlikely.If Timur lived long enough to invade China,he's going to find his head on a pike.He will be invading a land far from his power-base,lead by another military genius(Yongle Emperor) whose army would not only dwarf whatever army he could muster,but can counter his advantage in nomad cavalry by fielding auxiliary Mongolian horsemen.
 
Last edited:
How would Yuan dynasty/Northern Yuan dynasty would be able to retake at least part of China (bonus points if they can take it all) after that Ming Dynasty is established; and being considered as a legitimate dynasty by later Chinese scholars, longer than Yuan were.

The sticking point here to me is legitimate; only the Qing managed this, and even they were seen as alien, but legitimate (once good analogy I've seen is if Hungarian kings ended up ruling France in the late middle ages).

But Chinese officialdom has never seen the Mongols, or the Liao, etc. as legitimate.
 
The sticking point here to me is legitimate; only the Qing managed this, and even they were seen as alien, but legitimate (once good analogy I've seen is if Hungarian kings ended up ruling France in the late middle ages).

But Chinese officialdom has never seen the Mongols, or the Liao, etc. as legitimate.
That is incorrect.They actually saw the Mongols as legitimate,between the time when the Song Dynasty fell,and when the Ming Dynasty expelled them from China.
 
That is incorrect.They actually saw the Mongols as legitimate,between the time when the Song Dynasty fell,and when the Ming Dynasty expelled them from China.

Who's they? The Ming literati assuredly didn't. Chinese culture under the Mongols is full of veiled references to Mongol oppression, and there were resistance groups forming almost as soon as the Song fell. Check out Defending Heaven, which is about the Mongol conquest of Song China, for more detail.

Chinese scholars couldn't, of course, serve in high positions under the Mongols, which certainly skewed things.
 
That is incorrect.They actually saw the Mongols as legitimate,between the time when the Song Dynasty fell,and when the Ming Dynasty expelled them from China.

Mongol rule of southern China lasted for only 72 years, from 1279 when the last Song resistance fell, to 1351 when anti-Yuan uprisings started.
 
Mongol rule of southern China lasted for only 72 years, from 1279 when the last Song resistance fell, to 1351 when anti-Yuan uprisings started.

Doesn't matter how long a dynasty is.The fact that they did conquer the place gives enough legitimacy to make them an official dynasty.For the learned class,they accepted that the Yuan Dynasty was a legitimate Dynasty between the fall of Song and when the emperor fled Beijing,as they believed that the Mandate of Heaven has to be passed to some entity.They don't really believe there's such a thing as an 'interregnum',a period where no one has the mandate of heaven.The ancient historians went to crazy lengths to justify which state between the fall of Tang and the rise of Song has the Mandate of Heaven(the one that held legitimacy as the true emperor of China) despite no state having conquered the entirety of China during that period.
Who's they? The Ming literati assuredly didn't. Chinese culture under the Mongols is full of veiled references to Mongol oppression, and there were resistance groups forming almost as soon as the Song fell. Check out Defending Heaven, which is about the Mongol conquest of Song China, for more detail.

Chinese scholars couldn't, of course, serve in high positions under the Mongols, which certainly skewed things.
The fact that the posthumous title the Ming Court 'granted' to Toghon Temur after he kicked the bucket was Shundi(Emperor Shun) was a clear indication that the Yuan Dynasty was accepted as a legitimate Dynasty whose authority simply passed to the Ming eventually.You simply don't call another ruler an emperor in China,especially by the emperor of a ruling dynasty, if they were never accepted as a legitimate emperor.
 
Last edited:
Top