AHC: WWI & WW2 Never Happen

Deleted member 103950

I tried to discuss this in the fandom thread in regard to the alternate world of an anime film which takes place in an Alternate History European Nation (likely Germany/France) where both world wars never happened. I was fascinated by the concept of a world like that. Because World War I and II are so completely engrained into the cultures of Europe and America as one of our modern day foundational myths as a society that it's pretty much impossible to think of a 1950's-60''s where either of them never happened.

So without any ASB elements involved at all. What exactly would have had to change in order to keep both World War I and World war II from ever happening? What individual events throughout the eras leading up to the 1900s would have had to change? What would be the best point/date of divergence? Is keeping World War I and II from happening purely in the realm of ASB?

What are your thoughts on what the culture of this alternate worlds Europe and USA would look like?

How would this world have changed? What would culture in the Europe and USA of this alternate world be like? How would cultural attitudes changed? Would the sexual revolution or civil rights movement had happened in any way similarly to OTL?
 
If I had to boil it down to a single trend I could change, I'd say you could pull it off by preventing/reversing the decline of the Ottomans, ideally pre-Greek Independence but you might manage as late as Crimea. Hear me out on this; the Ottomans were a vital part of the balance of power in Eastern Europe that prevented the rise of a single regional hegemon; be it Austria or Russia, became the president for ethnic nationalism being tolerable and seperatistism/internationally enforced cleaving off of areas without annexing them to other Empires becoming an acceptable part of international affairs. With their decline, there ceased to be an effective check on Russia's entry into European affairs, and started the momentum of the balkanization of old spheres of influence and the principal of nationalism/self determination in both the unifying and dividing sense. Without that, Metterneich's balance in western/centeral Europe has a chance of holding, and the Scramble for Africa is mediated by a strong state protecting North Africa and probably expanding steadily into East Africa, providing a model for slower colonization where border dispute and rapid territorial grabs are far less likely. It's still a long shot, but the breaks are put on Russia and Germany's meteoric rise and Austria and the Ottomans better able to balance affairs in such a way as to makr it possible they can be incorperated into the traditional power structure of Europe in a non threatening way
 

Lusitania

Donor
I think that the collapse of Ottoman Empire is inevitable. Nationalism began in first 1/2 of the 19th century and countries such as Russia, HRE and ottoman empires days were numbered.

Yes you could prevent a WWI but little wars or regional wars were inevitable.
 

Deleted member 103950

If I had to boil it down to a single trend I could change, I'd say you could pull it off by preventing/reversing the decline of the Ottomans, ideally pre-Greek Independence but you might manage as late as Crimea.

Any Idea of how that would be accomplished?
 
I think the best way to prevent World War 1 & 2 from firing is to prevent the Prussian unification and formation of Germany. No ascendant Prussian militarism humiliating France and you don't get the First World War (and thus no Second). The best way to do this is to prevent Napoleon from coming to power and co-opting the French Revolution. Without his ambition and military ability Revolutionary France either finds its footing and forms a workable Republic or the European Monarchies finish them off and re-install the House of Bourbon. Without Napoleon dismantling the HRE Prussia won't be able to consolidate it's hold over the other German states. Without Napoleon rampaging through Europe the HRE continues along with Austria in the driver's seat. Without Napoleon spreading his law code and the ideas of the Revolution this will be a very different, much more aristocratic world.

Another butterfly of this ATL is the Spanish and Portuguese Colonial Empires don't collapse as fast. OTL Napoleon deposed the King of Spain and put his brother on the throne. Then he took Louisiana back from the Spanish and sold it to the USA. The lack of legitimacy caused revolutions throughout the Spanish Empire and they lost a lot of their colonies. Regardless of all this the USA still will see the Port of New Orleans as strategically and economically important. Jefferson will probably try to buy it from the Spanish just as he did the French - I have no idea how successful that would be. Would the Spanish recognize that they can't hold on to their North American possessions in the face of American expansion? Or will they try to hold on to them? Historically even before Napoleon Spain is starting to decline and have financial problems.

Without the Napoleonic Wars Britain doesn't face a manpower crisis for the RN and thus doesn't go around impressing American sailors, so no War of 1812. Instead there could be a war between the USA and Spain. British policy at the time was to prevent territorial expansion of the USA by supporting various Indian tribes and confederacies such as Tecumseh. ITTL we could have a Spanish-American War of 1812, with the Spanish receiving support from British-backed Indian tribes. Provided that Britain doesn't get directly involved I think the US will win against Spain. The logistics and distance all favor the US. Spain will have the same problems as Britain did - they can't afford to concentrate all their forces against the US as the have a vast Empire to keep under their control and the cracks are starting to show. All it will take is a few US frigates managing to sink or capture a few treasure ships and suddenly the Spanish are in trouble. Another butterfly - with an actual hostile European power on its border and possibly blocking its expansion there will be more pressure in the US to have a professional standing military. OTL after the War of 1812 the US Congress realized the country needed a much bigger Navy and increased funding. The end of a Spanish-American War of 1812 could still see the US and Spain sharing a border and require a larger standing army. There's no telling what butterflies this will have for the various Indian Wars, Texas, or the Civil War. By the end of the 19th Century though I think we will see a United States that largely looks like OTL. There is just no one else in North America that can compete with the economic, demographic, and resource-rich USA.

So how does this effect the late 19th/early 20th Century? The two great belligerent powers in Europe in mid-19th Century were Britain and Russia, and I think this will continue in to the OTL WWI/II period. I think you will see a series of Crimean War type conflicts - efforts by Britain to curtail Russian expansion and influence, ie, the Great Game. The big question will be, will Russia fall to revolution as OTL? The good news is that I don't think the British would be dumb enough to secretly back the Bolsheviks as the Germans did during WWI in OTL, so Russia probably becomes some kind of Federal Republic or Constitutional Monarchy.
 
If I had to boil it down to a single trend I could change, I'd say you could pull it off by preventing/reversing the decline of the Ottomans

The collapse of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.

Preventing their decline has massive repercussions. Russia and Austria will not be in conflict over the Balkans, since neither of them will be in a position to do so. Archduke Franz Ferdinand does not get assassinated in Sarajevo because the town is part of the Ottoman Empire.

French, Italian and British colonialism in North Africa doesn't happen. The middle east isn't carved up into artificial states. Saudi Arabia never comes into existence.

With the Ottomans still in the game, Russia is weaker. Austria may be less likely to fight Russia (and more likely to fight the Ottomans). Without Russian Austrian antagonism, the First world War never starts. Germany isn't called to defend its ally. Germany doesn't invade France. Britain doesn't get involved.

Quite possible is that Britain and Germany still go to war, but in a manner much closer to the 17th century wars with the Dutch, namely over colonies and fleets and trade.

France may end up on whichever side is convenient, with the squabbling focused on distant colonies rather than Europe. It would be a much different world.
 
Would I be wrong in saying that, to prevent WWII, we just have to prevent WWI?

Basically. I'm personally a follower of the theory that the two were really part of the same extended conflict over "The Germany Question": namely, how and where such a powerful and historically unprecedented entity was going to fit into the traditional European power structure
 
Basically. I'm personally a follower of the theory that the two were really part of the same extended conflict over "The Germany Question": namely, how and where such a powerful and historically unprecedented entity was going to fit into the traditional European power structure

I had a friend who called the Franco-German war of 1870 the "WW prequel"...
 
I think that the collapse of Ottoman Empire is inevitable. Nationalism began in first 1/2 of the 19th century and countries such as Russia, HRE and ottoman empires days were numbered.

Yes you could prevent a WWI but little wars or regional wars were inevitable.

It is not inevitable nor did it collapse
 
The collapse of the Ottoman Empire during the First World War was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.

Preventing their decline has massive repercussions. Russia and Austria will not be in conflict over the Balkans, since neither of them will be in a position to do so. Archduke Franz Ferdinand does not get assassinated in Sarajevo because the town is part of the Ottoman Empire.

French, Italian and British colonialism in North Africa doesn't happen. The middle east isn't carved up into artificial states. Saudi Arabia never comes into existence.

With the Ottomans still in the game, Russia is weaker. Austria may be less likely to fight Russia (and more likely to fight the Ottomans). Without Russian Austrian antagonism, the First world War never starts. Germany isn't called to defend its ally. Germany doesn't invade France. Britain doesn't get involved.

Quite possible is that Britain and Germany still go to war, but in a manner much closer to the 17th century wars with the Dutch, namely over colonies and fleets and trade.

France may end up on whichever side is convenient, with the squabbling focused on distant colonies rather than Europe. It would be a much different world.

Post 1791 or better, post Napoleon Austria wished not to fight the Ottomans to give the Russians more influence over the Balkans. A resurgent Ottoman Empire in the 19th century will not be stupid enough to fight Austria (and thus driving them towards Russia). Both powers know their limits and the bigger danger. In this case, Russia.
 

Lusitania

Donor
It is not inevitable nor did it collapse
It is inevitable that it will loose majority if not all of its Christian subjects especially those in Europe. Support from British and french elites who valued Christian citizens would of resulted in lots of $ being raised in Europe to finance Christian demands for independence. Attacks by Ottoman against Christians should put it in direct path against these countries governments who bowing to political pressure would demand Ottoman restrains.

Also oil politics will be large component of British diplomacy as big business believing they get better deal from weak local government will provide Arabs with support in their desire to liberate themselves from Ottoman Empire.

Lastly we have the desire to liberate the holy land from Ottoman control. Only Russian threats kept the french and British out. Do no Russian means western control of holly land.
 
Stopping the Aliance system from developing would go a long way towards eliminating WW1. As it keeps the way limited in scope and stops things like Germany going to war because France and Russia had it surrounded. A lot the way WW1 started was really a domino affair. Once the First Domino fell the rest of them where coming down. So you want to avoid the big war you need to stop the chain that leads to everyone going to war.
Because even if you Elimited the assasination eventually you will have something that starts a war between someone. And with the entangling alliances as soon as any two countries start up then POOF World War. So short of ASB that turn everyone nice and polite and cause total disarmament you will EVENTUALLY get a shooting war someplace. Maybe you delay it a few years or even 20 years but eventually it will happen somehow.
But if you keep Russia out of it or you keep France out then the mess is a relatively short minor war in the Balkins. It is not like Europe had not seen wars in the past. Look at France it was either attacking or being attacked for most of the 18 hundreds. But those wars did not get out of control and take all of Europe. And that was because everyone else stayed out of them. What was so different about WW1? The absolutely stupid alliance system that if honored Brought a whole group of counties in on one side or the other. This scared the other side so they had no option but to go to war and they brought in there buddies.

Basically it is the difference between Two guys in public park getting into a fight in which just the two of them go at it and two guys in a ball parking starting a fight that cleans out both dugouts and sees EVERYONE fighting.
 
It is inevitable that it will loose majority if not all of its Christian subjects especially those in Europe. Support from British and french elites who valued Christian citizens would of resulted in lots of $ being raised in Europe to finance Christian demands for independence. Attacks by Ottoman against Christians should put it in direct path against these countries governments who bowing to political pressure would demand Ottoman restrains.

Also oil politics will be large component of British diplomacy as big business believing they get better deal from weak local government will provide Arabs with support in their desire to liberate themselves from Ottoman Empire.

Lastly we have the desire to liberate the holy land from Ottoman control. Only Russian threats kept the french and British out. Do no Russian means western control of holly land.

Except that in reallity British and French did not let the Ottomans lose too much (Christian) land to not let Russia have dominance in the region. Even with regards to small weak governments was not reliable for the Great Powers as you say. If they were they had not waited until 1914 to get rid of it or supported Egypt instead of the Ottomans in the 1840s. Absolutely based on nothing.

And what do you consider as Christian land? The early Principality of Serbia was relatively the most Christian Pashaluk of the Empire with around 90% being Christian. The rest of the Balkans had a balanced Muslim to Christian ratio. Not even counting the Muslims who got massacred during war or rebellion.

Even early rebellions where neither Nationalistic nor supported heavily. Serb revolt for example, was in the name of the Sultan against the local Janissaries and their brutal rule. If the Sultan had not failed to give support then we would not even be talking about this. Russian support lasted until Russia had what it desired. Their support for Christian minorities were weak. Even the Greek revolt had its roots with Ali Pasha stirring it up rather than a nationalistic one.

If we assume the Christians of the Balkans still migrate as OTL to the Americas then the control of the Christian majority regions are even better to control, especially with Muslim migration to there. The only thing needed was going true the early 19th century. With the improving infrastructure it will be better to control.

It isn't inevitable, thats just wishful thinking.
 

samcster94

Banned
I always picture Austria-Hungary falling apart horribly in such a universe(where no major Europe-wide war occurs by this alt 1950).
 
will provide Arabs with support in their desire to liberate themselves from Ottoman Empire.

Lastly we have the desire to liberate the holy land from Ottoman control.

Arabs wanted independence. What they got was colonial rule and the creation of Israel on their land. With hindsight, it can be seen that Arabs who fought against the Ottomans were simply damn fools who brought about their own enslavement. They were, in effect, fighting against their own best interests. Perhaps "traitors" is too strong a word, but the consequences were disastrous.

"Liberate" the holy land? That's an interesting choice of words... it is exactly from the moment the Ottomans lost control of that area that all problems begin...
 

Lusitania

Donor
Except that in reallity British and French did not let the Ottomans lose too much (Christian) land to not let Russia have dominance in the region. Even with regards to small weak governments was not reliable for the Great Powers as you say. If they were they had not waited until 1914 to get rid of it or supported Egypt instead of the Ottomans in the 1840s. Absolutely based on nothing.

And what do you consider as Christian land? The early Principality of Serbia was relatively the most Christian Pashaluk of the Empire with around 90% being Christian. The rest of the Balkans had a balanced Muslim to Christian ratio. Not even counting the Muslims who got massacred during war or rebellion.

Even early rebellions where neither Nationalistic nor supported heavily. Serb revolt for example, was in the name of the Sultan against the local Janissaries and their brutal rule. If the Sultan had not failed to give support then we would not even be talking about this. Russian support lasted until Russia had what it desired. Their support for Christian minorities were weak. Even the Greek revolt had its roots with Ali Pasha stirring it up rather than a nationalistic one.

If we assume the Christians of the Balkans still migrate as OTL to the Americas then the control of the Christian majority regions are even better to control, especially with Muslim migration to there. The only thing needed was going true the early 19th century. With the improving infrastructure it will be better to control.

It isn't inevitable, thats just wishful thinking.

Ottoman Empire was not carved up by British and french as well as Austrian-Hungary due to Russia and need to keep it out of the balkans and Middle East. The premise is that the Russians are not a threat and in their place are a few Slavic small nations, right?

Now this also put into question about the Napoleonic wars. If no Russia would Napoleão win? He wanted egypt and Palestine só that might change things too.

Arabs wanted independence. What they got was colonial rule and the creation of Israel on their land. With hindsight, it can be seen that Arabs who fought against the Ottomans were simply damn fools who brought about their own enslavement. They were, in effect, fighting against their own best interests. Perhaps "traitors" is too strong a word, but the consequences were disastrous.

"Liberate" the holy land? That's an interesting choice of words... it is exactly from the moment the Ottomans lost control of that area that all problems begin...
I am using terminology from 10th to 20th century by Christians in Europe and America. It was “liberate” the holy land from infidels. Their words not mine.

As for Arabs they were dominated and controlled by both the ottomans and Europeans. Neither was better and in both cases were not masters of their own lands. The famous Lawrence of Arabia had advocated their independence but neither french nor British were supporters of that. What they wanted was control of the resources and paint the globe in either blue or pink. So I not stating they benefited just that geopolitical circumstances made them pawns between ottomans and Europeans.
 

Deleted member 103950

Would I be wrong in saying that, to prevent WWII, we just have to prevent WWI?

Mostly yes.

As I said before. If it wasn't for world war I. The cultural and moral disenchantment of Europe and America that led to the rise of counter cultural the Dadaists in Europe and the Flappers in America would have never come to exist. No disenchantment with the society that led to such horrors, no need for change or really mass rebellion of the youth. (again generally speaking).

Also Adolf Hitler (assuming he would even be born in this timeline) would have never been involved in the war, and his most formative experience would have never come to be. Even if he did join the Austrian military, with no World War I to be involved in, be wounded in, and develop his philosophy and obsession with war in, he would have just at best been another soldier, or at worst just a madman leading a fringe political movement.

With no World War I screwing germany over, no economic crisis to take advantage of and blame on jewish bankers, no Nazi party no Third Reich. No World War in the 30's-40's.

It's anyones guess how this would have impacted Asia and Imperial Japan.

I always picture Austria-Hungary falling apart horribly in such a universe(where no major Europe-wide war occurs by this alt 1950).

Care to flesh out why you think this?
 
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