AHC: WW2 jet-on-jet battles

IOTL meteors were kept out of Europe to stop the Germans getting ahold of tech, but what would it take to make them not be?
 
If the war drags on for some reason then while the meteor might be kept out, I wonder if the P80 Shooting Star would be flown outside of Italy?

I also think that jet Vs jet combat would see the earlier phasing out of straight wing designs in favour of swept wing designs, which could bring the F86 Sabre.

You could see the Dehaviland Vampire do quite well as well. Not sure how well it would fare against the ME-262 though.
 
The meteors were operation on the European mainland from 20th Jan - but both the ME262 and Meteor were only used for defensive duties over German/allied territory

In the Meteors case it was due to as you say not wanting it falling into the hands of the Germans and more importantly the Russians (which is funny considering how the Russians eventually got hold of Jets Engines!) and issues around being mistaken for ME262s resulting in at least one near Friendly fire incident when they started mixing it up with FW190s only to be attacked by other RAF Squadrons.

Arado 234 Jet bombers attacked a Meteor Airfield in Holland in March 1945 - I think thats the closest they got to a Jet on Jet battle.

Perhaps have the allied intel suggest that the ME262 is going to be ready in larger numbers earlier and this forces greater development and improved construction of the Meteor. That might get it deployed in greater numbers earlier etc improving the chances of an air encounter.
 
IOTL Meteors were kept out of Europe...
IIRC they weren't kept out of Europe entirely but deployed to the continent in early 1945, albeit with the limitation of not being allowed to fly beyond the front lines so as to preclude any crashing in enemy held territory. If you can find some way to speed up their deployment that ups the likelihood of jet versus jet combat, the problem being that early models were rather thirsty and the logistical situation wasn't all that great.
 
You could see the Dehaviland Vampire do quite well as well. Not sure how well it would fare against the ME-262 though.

The Vampire could run rings round a 262 in horizontal manouvers, was evenly matched in the vertical and the Goblin engine was more resistant to flaming out than the BMW allowing for more vigourous throttle use. However the initial versions of the Vampire had problems with aiming the guns as it snaked at combat speeds, I am no expert but I believe it was a problem with the control surfaces being out of proportion a problem not cured till well after the war. Bailing out of a Vampire before the ejection seat was a zero level survivable option. Range was also an early Vampire problem it would be one or two passes before the pilot ran for home with the fuel light on.

The Vampire was a pure fighter in the mould of a 109 or Spitfire the 262 was a bomber killer and if it caught a Vampire with one round from its 30mm the RAF pilot was going to get his Angels wings.
 
I thought range was something of an issue. The early jets were all notoriously short ranged fighters and thus really only useful for point defense missions.
 
I thought range was something of an issue. The early jets were all notoriously short ranged fighters and thus really only useful for point defense missions.
I'm thinking the same way. Range may be the main reason preventing jet on jet battles. Allied jets versus bombers is a possibility.
 
IOTL meteors were kept out of Europe to stop the Germans getting ahold of tech, but what would it take to make them not be?

To respond specifically, the Meteor, 616 squadron, was based in Belgium and Holland and was cleared for flight over enemy territory in Feb. 1945, so this TTL is met by OTL.


The Vampire was a pure fighter in the mould of a 109 or Spitfire the 262 was a bomber killer and if it caught a Vampire with one round from its 30mm the RAF pilot was going to get his Angels wings.

The Vampire was declared a fighter-bomber by the wise decision-makers.

An RAF pilot/angel doesn't get his angel wings until a bell rings. (Zuzu)
 

Ramontxo

Donor
IOTL meteors were kept out of Europe to stop the Germans getting ahold of tech, but what would it take to make them not be?
Out of the rest of Europe I suppose, was going to make an Brexit joke but am too saddened by the whole (IMHO) fiasco to do it.:cryingface:
 
Out of the rest of Europe I suppose, was going to make an Brexit joke but am too saddened by the whole (IMHO) fiasco to do it.:cryingface:

That's less jet fighter than Train Wreck - the only time my father and I have really fallen out over anything. Anyway lets not 'derail' the thread.....Train wreck....derail...see what I did????
 
If the war lasted longer (a situation most unwanted) it is highly likely that the USAAF in Europe would have several squadrons of P-80s in the ETO. These would have been outclassed by the Me-262 to some degree individually. But operationally I think tactics and number would have overcome that to a large degree. The same applies to the Meteor. Perhaps the biggest potential problem IMO is the .50 M2 Brownings vs the cannon armament. While P-51s were able to down 262's with .50s how many of these 262 shoot downs were a result of the tactical situation rather than the overall quality of the aircraft and or armament. This can most likely be applied to all 262 losses to RAF and Red Air Force fighters. At speed the 262 was pretty much untouchable by piston engined fighters.
In jet vs jet combat operations the common tactic is most likely to be high speed passes that minimize the chance for the target aircraft to engage if not destroyed or crippled. The prospect for jet vs jet dog fights needs better engines with more power and better throttling.
One thing I think we would see if P-80's engaged 262's during the closing months of WWII is the adoption of cannon as primary fighter armament instead of clinging to the .50 caliber as long as the USAF. The retention of .50 caliber on the F-86 rather than adopting 20mm seems to be in some ways an analog of the US Army's clinging to the full power cartridge for service rifles.
 
The closest thing to jet on jet combat in WW2 was when an Ar234 bombed Melsbroek airfield where the Meteors were based and one got a bomb fragment in the nose.

The prerequisite for jet on jet is changing the RAF deployment of Meteors. IOTL they initially sent a flight of F.1s then drip fed over some F.3s to build up a squadron. What they needed to do was send all of 616sqn with F.3s over to Belgium, tasked with anti-Ar234 interception.
 
If the war lasted longer (a situation most unwanted) it is highly likely that the USAAF in Europe would have several squadrons of P-80s in the ETO. These would have been outclassed by the Me-262 to some degree individually. But operationally I think tactics and number would have overcome that to a large degree. The same applies to the Meteor. Perhaps the biggest potential problem IMO is the .50 M2 Brownings vs the cannon armament. While P-51s were able to down 262's with .50s how many of these 262 shoot downs were a result of the tactical situation rather than the overall quality of the aircraft and or armament. This can most likely be applied to all 262 losses to RAF and Red Air Force fighters. At speed the 262 was pretty much untouchable by piston engined fighters.
In jet vs jet combat operations the common tactic is most likely to be high speed passes that minimize the chance for the target aircraft to engage if not destroyed or crippled. The prospect for jet vs jet dog fights needs better engines with more power and better throttling.
One thing I think we would see if P-80's engaged 262's during the closing months of WWII is the adoption of cannon as primary fighter armament instead of clinging to the .50 caliber as long as the USAF. The retention of .50 caliber on the F-86 rather than adopting 20mm seems to be in some ways an analog of the US Army's clinging to the full power cartridge for service rifles.

If or when the P80's and Meteors get outclassed by the ME 262 the Vampire will get an increased priority very quickly. In my opinion it was the best of the Allies first generation jets and the only true fighter.
 
It is interesting that when a call for interception of Ar-234 attacks on the Remagen bridge took place, it was the Tempests that got the nod, and not Meteors. Arados were shot down by Tempests, Spitfire, Mustang, Lightning and Thunderbolt as well as AA. Perhaps it was because the Meteor couldn't shoot straight.
 
If I remember correctly, most ME-262s that were shot down, were shot down while landing as they had terrible low speed manoeuvrability and couldn't accelerate suddenly.
 
If I remember correctly, most ME-262s that were shot down, were shot down while landing as they had terrible low speed manoeuvrability and couldn't accelerate suddenly.

P-47s did well against them at high altitude. They would dive one them from above and in a dive the P-47 was let's just say really fast...
 
If or when the P80's and Meteors get outclassed by the ME 262 the Vampire will get an increased priority very quickly. In my opinion it was the best of the Allies first generation jets and the only true fighter.

If the war had been looking to on into '46 the Vampire most definitly gets prodded along. Although it had its problems with stability and gunnery early on as I understand it. The P-80's performance early on was not as good as it could be. Tracable to US industry's being behind in gas turbine technology. A situation caused by the AAC lack of enthusiasm for the concept in the late '30s up to 1941. The one good thing the AAC did during the '30s as far as gas turbines went was investing in GE's turbo-chargers.
 
Another PoD could be the delays caused by Rovers intransigence. If the jets went to RR earlier then the Meteor would enter service earlier and have 3 or 4 squadrons in service by early 45 rather than 2. Then the later F3 batches could be sent to Belgium and maybe see combat.

Just a word on the war dragging on a bit and the 262 outclassing the P80 etc. By August 1945 the long nacelles for the Meteor F3 will be available, raising the top speed to 580mph, faster than the 262. This will be enough to get on top of the German jets.
 
faster P-40s didn't always win over the much slower Zero.

P-80 was slower, but far more stable in high speed flight (no snaking like the 262) and had the faster firing M3 .50s.

It had the K-14 Lead Computing Gyro Gunsight. Few 262s had the similar, but very unreliable EZ42 sight.

My money would be on P-80s and Meteors, that had a similar sight.

Then add in that those two you can quickly adjust the throttles and do high G maneuvers without flameouts
 
An early form of Re-Heat designed by Power Jets and the Royal Aircraft Establishment was used in the Whittle W2/700 engine first flown in a Meteor MkI and increased speed by 30 to 40mph. At max speed/altitude using re-heat the Vampire, Meteor and P80 would have been encountering compressibility problems but it would have got a Vampire/Meteor/P80 off the runway and at combat altitude very quickly.
 
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