AHC worst victory possible for the Wallies

This challenge is simple, it is a scenario where the western allies win WWII, but in the worst conditions possible and having the major amount of damage possible suffered

I know that almost everyone will comment "The allies get crushed in operation overlord and the soviets take over europe", so this option is removed, the Wallies must control some part of mainland europe after the end of the war
 
This challenge is simple, it is a scenario where the western allies win WWII, but in the worst conditions possible and having the major amount of damage possible suffered

I know that almost everyone will comment "The allies get crushed in operation overlord and the soviets take over europe", so this option is removed, the Wallies must control some part of mainland europe after the end of the war

I got two for you...

Britain does operation vegetarian. Results in the complete collapse of food production in western Europe.
By the time overlord happens, millions in occupied Europe have died of starvation. Europe then goes completely Red.

Another could be the Nazis using biological weapons.
Escalation between the warring parties results in permenant maiming of millions. Europe then goes completely red
 
I got two for you...

Britain does operation vegetarian. Results in the complete collapse of food production in western Europe.
By the time overlord happens, millions in occupied Europe have died of starvation. Europe then goes completely Red.

Another could be the Nazis using biological weapons.
Escalation between the warring parties results in permenant maiming of millions. Europe then goes completely red

1- This didn't really damaged USA and UK, of course their post war situation will be bad, but this actually made the invasion of europe very easily since almost everyone died and the germans wouldn't be able to put a resistence
Plus as I said, since europe falling to the soviets is too cliche, the allies must at least grab some part of france and italy before the war ends

2- Nice, but europe cannot be 100% red after the war
 
I got two for you...

Britain does operation vegetarian. Results in the complete collapse of food production in western Europe.
By the time overlord happens, millions in occupied Europe have died of starvation. Europe then goes completely Red.

Another could be the Nazis using biological weapons.
Escalation between the warring parties results in permenant maiming of millions. Europe then goes completely red

It looks like in OTL the US was willing to mass produce a British designed anthrax bomb (a later development to Vegetarian which was originally just anthrax contaminated linsead cakes). This seems to imply that the Americans could at least see a potential future in which they would be willing to use such a potent biological weapon (or at least tacitly approving British use of it), persumably if Overlord failed with heavy allied casualties and it became clear that the allies wouldn't be able to retake western Europe.

"March 1944, Churchill ordered 500,000 anthrax bomblets from the United States. An American plant (possibly at a secret Terre Haute, Indiana facility) promised to deliver 250,000 by the end of 1944."


"Estimates indicated that one thousand of these (containing a total of 106,000 anthrax bomblets) could extinguish life in a 25-square-mile area."

http://hubpages.com/education/World...d-to-Depopulate-Northern-Germany-With-Anthrax


So, ya. I will see your original Vegetarian a la infected linsead cakes and raise you a late 1944 Anglo-American Anthrax strategic bombing campaign that leaves Germany (and central Europe) a contaminated wasteland for decades. Likely the Anthrax contamination would spread to neutral and German conquered countries in the West in sum total causing enormous numbers of Europeans to die from infection and later starvation as much of Europe remains a contaminated wasteland for decades.

This seems worse than either the Nazis or the Soviets ending WW2 in control of mainland Europe.
 

CalBear

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Pretty sure I wrote a fairly popular time-line that covers this in some degree of detail.
 
Operation Pike is launched. The Soviets are dragged into matters on the Axis side. The UK is forced into searching down extreme methods and push ahead vegetarian schemes. Japan still attacks the US (they don't like the USSR and vice-versa, so supplies move slowly and Japan needs more oil, plus have ticked of the US over China already).

The Wallies are forced to use biological and nuclear warfare, and while they can break and bleed their way through Japan with only a few nukes cracking Europe with both the Wehrmacht and Red Army takes dozens of warheads, and by the time they've bled through Germany the Soviets have nukes, and combined with long range missiles, nerve gas, and biological warfare, the Wallies start getting hit with ABC weapons as the war drags into a second decade.
 
Operation Pike is launched. The Soviets are dragged into matters on the Axis side. The UK is forced into searching down extreme methods and push ahead vegetarian schemes. Japan still attacks the US (they don't like the USSR and vice-versa, so supplies move slowly and Japan needs more oil, plus have ticked of the US over China already).

The Wallies are forced to use biological and nuclear warfare, and while they can break and bleed their way through Japan with only a few nukes cracking Europe with both the Wehrmacht and Red Army takes dozens of warheads, and by the time they've bled through Germany the Soviets have nukes, and combined with long range missiles, nerve gas, and biological warfare, the Wallies start getting hit with ABC weapons as the war drags into a second decade.

I think we got a winner :D
 
Meanwhile RAF Bomber Command gets their act together to systematically fire-bomb most German, Austrian .... heck any occupied city, reducing them to cinders.
The USAAF perfects precision bombing to destroy hundreds of bridges and millions of miles of rail lines. Transportation does not really matter as the few surviving farmers are too busy clearing land-mines, bomb lets, etc. to sow crops for the next few years.

Canada can feed the UK, but who is going to feed continental Europe?
 
There is also the option of the Germans just not ever getting around to pulling off Barbarossa for some reason but the Soviets also never join up with Germany. As a result, the Soviets just sit back, keep trading with Germany (increasingly to their benefit), rebuild the Red Army, and watch until the fighting is almost over. Starting from '45 onwards the WAllies manage to fight their way into Germany with nuclear ordinance over millions of corpses (their own and the Germans), with Western Europe as a whole getting horribly burnt and blasted by all the fighting. And then, when the Heer finally breaks and the WAllies breech the Rhine and begin to fan out over central Germany, the Soviets walk in and seize Eastern Europe anyways.
 
Meanwhile RAF Bomber Command gets their act together to systematically fire-bomb most German, Austrian .... heck any occupied city, reducing them to cinders.
The USAAF perfects precision bombing to destroy hundreds of bridges and millions of miles of rail lines. Transportation does not really matter as the few surviving farmers are too busy clearing land-mines, bomb lets, etc. to sow crops for the next few years.

Canada can feed the UK, but who is going to feed continental Europe?

Well, this isn't so valid since this is going to crush europe, not direct the allied block (apart from France)
 
There is also the option of the Germans just not ever getting around to pulling off Barbarossa for some reason but the Soviets also never join up with Germany. As a result, the Soviets just sit back, keep trading with Germany (increasingly to their benefit), rebuild the Red Army, and watch until the fighting is almost over. Starting from '45 onwards the WAllies manage to fight their way into Germany with nuclear ordinance over millions of corpses (their own and the Germans), with Western Europe as a whole getting horribly burnt and blasted by all the fighting. And then, when the Heer finally breaks and the WAllies breech the Rhine and begin to fan out over central Germany, the Soviets walk in and seize Eastern Europe anyways.

OTOH, the tens of millions who died in Eastern Europe don't die ITTL, so I'm not quite sure this counts as worse, except in the narrow sense that the US & UK have greater casualties.
 
OTOH, the tens of millions who died in Eastern Europe don't die ITTL, so I'm not quite sure this counts as worse, except in the narrow sense that the US & UK have greater casualties.

Yes, it does count, the americans and british have horrible casualties, just to the soviets still grab eastern europe as otl with almost no effort at all
 
Yes, it does count, the americans and british have horrible casualties, just to the soviets still grab eastern europe as otl with almost no effort at all

Yes but 20 million fewer Russian men women and children dying than in OTL still cant be called anything but a good thing in and of itself. This scenario is pretty much the same as OTL, just trading Soviet deaths for British/American/Canadian/Free French deaths. Obviously this is worse from the perspective of a Brit or an American but in total damage to the human race due to the Nazi's and WW2, I am not sure this is much worse than what we got in OTL.

Personally I still think that the worst outcome is one that not only leads to million of deaths and/or occupation by a totalitarian regime (we got that in OTL in eastern Europe) but one that literally renders much of Europe largely lifeless for generations. Hence I still think Anthrax carpet bombing is still the worst possible option available before 1945. A quarter of a million bombs were to be ready by the end of 1944, with it being estimated that 1000 bombs could wipe out life for 25 square miles. That means by the end of 1944 the Wallies have the capability to contaminate a huge band of land in Europe, which would stay uninhabitable for many decades. Frankly the only option up from there is the hydrogen bomb that comes in the 1950s.

Also, to go to the Pacific war as well; imagine what anthrax bombs could do to Japan for that matter, seeing as how densely populated the country was and how much it depended on outside sources for food as it was already.
 
Yes but 20 million fewer Russian men women and children dying than in OTL still cant be called anything but a good thing in and of itself. This scenario is pretty much the same as OTL, just trading Soviet deaths for British/American/Canadian/Free French deaths. Obviously this is worse from the perspective of a Brit or an American but in total damage to the human race due to the Nazi's and WW2, I am not sure this is much worse than what we got in OTL.

Personally I still think that the worst outcome is one that not only leads to million of deaths and/or occupation by a totalitarian regime (we got that in OTL in eastern Europe) but one that literally renders much of Europe largely lifeless for generations. Hence I still think Anthrax carpet bombing is still the worst possible option available before 1945. A quarter of a million bombs were to be ready by the end of 1944, with it being estimated that 1000 bombs could wipe out life for 25 square miles. That means by the end of 1944 the Wallies have the capability to contaminate a huge band of land in Europe, which would stay uninhabitable for many decades. Frankly the only option up from there is the hydrogen bomb that comes in the 1950s.

Also, to go to the Pacific war as well; imagine what anthrax bombs could do to Japan for that matter, seeing as how densely populated the country was and how much it depended on outside sources for food as it was already.


It is worse for the Wallies, so it fits the challenge

I know it would be a human desaster and the worst possible outcome if the allies erased life in europe to defeated nazi germany, but this is matter for another thread, not this, the objective is a scenario that ends with a allied victory, but with the western allies suffering as much damage possible for the little amount of gain possible
 
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