AHC: Worst possible outcome for the CSA

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I suppose the rebellion could be suppressed as most others were done in earlier time periods. Leaders are executed and lower ranks and families sold into slavery in Brazil (slavery outlawed in late 1860s, Dutch East Indies (slavery supposedly ended in 1863), Egypt and Zanzibar. Thankfully, this did happen.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There's something very wrong with us...

I guess the way we can think about it is their ancestors kicked our ancestors out.:D

We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end?...

Best,
 
Maybe the USA also collapsed?

Good point. But it would have to be of a far lesser nature than the CSA's.

...wait, pardon?

Didn't the Americans mostly come from that very same Europe? (Over two thirds of the way through that thousand years of crushed peasant revolts.)

To ESCAPE that world. Left to their own affairs for 150 years, learning for themselves the joys of freedom unknown in the Old World, only in 1763 to find the Old World trying to rule the Colonies directly from their own capitol 3000 miles away. The local yokels no like.

Their chosen option was to ELECT their leaders, not suffer the rule of "Divine Right". And if they made mistakes, said rulers could always be removed.

As I said, the radical(ized) working class of the USA simply doesn't exist here. I wish it did, but it doesn't. Prevent the risings of Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson (except on all things touching race), and every Democrat since FDR and you'll have your American working class radicalism. And the rise of the Socialist Party and the death of the Republican Party.

I've also heard of this thing called the Gilded Age. It was, as I understand it, somewhat unpleasant.
But that lasted from, say, from 1877 to 1901. 24 years. Not exactly long enough to stamp on a nation's psyche. And trust me, Americans know nothing about all those peasant revolts, beyond "thank God our ancestors were smart enough to get out of that!"

The Middle Ages last from 476 to 1513. 1037 years. So I really don't think you want to start measuring w***s:p:D

Yeah, but they were smart enough to leave.;)

Best,

Or took off in the face of chaos.

I guess the way we can think about it is their ancestors kicked our ancestors out.:D

Or our ancestors figured they could do better in a land where you could actually get ahead.

Or in my ancestors' case, just really bad at growing potatoes.

Now, now. The Potato Blight was no more the fault of Irish farmers than the Boll Weevil was for American farmers.

We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end?...

Best,

1) You butchered the wording

2) I really don't think most of the people here have seen "Stripes":cool:

Well, there is that, but ... they were smart enough to go somewhere where they DIDN'T have to grow potatoes - they could grow, um, beans, instead!

Best,

They could grow anything the latitudes, rainfall, and soil would support. Which was...a lot.:)
 
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ITTL, the Voll Weevil only would have been nothing compared to what happened. Yes, I will add it.

True. My thought was the total collapse of their big export crop just as all the other bad stuff hits will render any attempts to salvage the situation totally unworkable...
 
Wigfall, 1866

By the eve of the first Confederate election since secession, Louis Wigfall fails to win against Alexander Stephens, prompting Texas to go "on its own". It takes Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and re-claims the New Mexico Territory on paper though wisely does not pursue it. The remaining seven Confederate states are little more than a British puppet that begin to internally fracture almost immediately. A 'Virginia' or Moderate faction simply wants to develop and grow while a 'South Carolina' or Fire-Eater faction wants to expand aggressively starting with the reborn Republic of Texas or Yucatan peninsula. With Mexico still undergoing civil war the Yucatan breaks free of Imperial rule and joins Richmond, but the drain on resources permits large-scale slave revolts and an outright race war results. Although Richmond uses the last of its hard currency to buy Spencer rifles and ammunition en masse, the resulting "Forty days of Hell" results in not only Texas proclaiming abolition but the broken Confederate states re-applying to the Union for read mission within half a decade. Inflationary pressures and the sheer lack of credit prevented any chance at meaningful recovery, especially after Spain released the 'Carlist Memo' demanding all of Florida south of and including St Augustine in exchange for 'unpaid debts including the human cargo of La Amistad'. Imperial Mexico's swift return to the area against laughable opposition did not help. Although Texas was able to obtain a vast area including the then-Territory of New Mexico along with much of Northern Mexico it has become, 'A nation of Germans, Irishmen, and Native Americans living in former Mexico who speak a hybrid of Spanish and American who talk of Southern stregth, spend American dollars, but answer to London and Paris'. By 1920 with the Union of Canada and the US the Republic of Texas has begun to make progress thanks to petroleum but most of those profits head for Wall Street and London instead of Houston, Dallas, or San Antonio.
 
I have a scenario... Im pretty sure it's ASB but it's a try.

Lincoln doesn't come into power in the beginning of the war...but comes in during the 1864 election. By this time, the confederates have consolidated their position and the first major union offensives in 1865 grind to a halt. By 1867, the union has had little success in capturing all of the confederacy but has control the Mississippi River and has burnt Richmond to the ground.

Unable to handle the mounting casualties and continued bloodshed of their southern breathren, the union declares a unilateral ceasefire. The confederacy does the same


For the most prt, the confederacy has won the war...the union is unwilling to reconquer the southern states.

Around the second confederate election, things go to shit. Abolitionists infiltrate the confederacy through union controlled Mississippi River. Large populations of slaves flee to north causing economic chaos throughout the south. The confederacy attempts to restart the Atlantic slave trade but it's ships are being sunk by American and European naval vessels. Some former slaves after fleeing north, acquire arms from radical republicans and northern sympathizers and start armed slave rebellions throughout the south.

The south is now bleeding labor...and the southern elite looks to the white lower class to fill that void. This results in a 3 way civil war in the south.

The poor who're fighting the elite to prevent themselves from being subjagated or because they want to replace them through force.
The former slaves who are fighting both the elite and the poor whites so they won't be brought back into slavery.

First civil war veterans fight for the both the elite and the poor.

The former confederacy breaks into pieces... Most of the confederate leadership has been deposed by regional coups, assassinated by insurgents, or has defected to their seceding home states. Authorities from all sides of the confederacy look to the north to end the chaos engulfing the south. Freebooters from the north and from Europe invade the confederacy and establish little dictatorships in the absence of central authority.

Refugees flee north into the U.S. and the southern states and insurgents now welcome the U.S. Military. In 1870s the U.S. Army marches south unaposed...the union is restored. The few surviving confederate leaders and freebooters are put on trial for treason.

The south is almost devoid of blacks...only 20% of the southern population is of African decent. Former slaves and their descendants have mostoy moved west towards the frontier... With large populations of blacks in Colorado and the Dakotas.
 
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Rough Concept

A "Peace Democrat" comes to be elected in 1864, and a cease-fire in place is implemented. But, at the time, the USA holds many of the cities, including New Orleans, Mobile, Norfolk, Vicksburg...

Said Peace Democrat's vice president was given the job to keep him out of the way--all well and good until the president ends up dead. The new president is not in favor of peace, and the CSA gets a peace mostly based on current military positions--and the USA has passage rights on the Missisippi to the US city of New Orleans.

Now there's an "independent" CSA with very few cities (Atlanta, Richmond, and getting Savannah back at the peace table, perhaps?)

And any slave that makes it into US territory is free, the CSA needs to pay passage fees to get its crops to market, and there's a third world nation sitting there until the USA decides to gather it in--or some parts decide that reunification is better than such poverty and break off.

Messy--but a technically independent CSA...
 
* Louisiana decides to withdraw from the Confederacy, triggering a Confederate invasion and occupation. However the French, Americans, British and even the Texans intervene decisively against the Confederacy, triggering yet another military disaster. Kansas is lost to the United States, and humiliating terms and penalties are imposed.

Kansas was a decidedly Union state in the real Civil War - you may want to replace it with Indian Territory/*Oklahoma, especially if America takes back north Texas (and they're descendants of Upper Southerners/Appalachians compared to east Texas's Deep Southern ancestors, so).
 
Well, there is that, but ... they were smart enough to go somewhere where they DIDN'T have to grow potatoes - they could grow, um, beans, instead!

Best,

Coal mining and Saloon keeping! The Saloon keeping was considered very fun.

G
Now, now. The Potato Blight was no more the fault of Irish farmers than the Boll Weevil was for American farmers.

And cultivating a certain WASP understatement and self deprecation with the upward mobility was also in the cards.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Mine were ranch hands (not ranchers) on one side,

Coal mining and Saloon keeping! The Saloon keeping was considered very fun.



And cultivating a certain WASP understatement and self deprecation with the upward mobility was also in the cards.

Mine were ranch hands (not ranchers) on one side and building trades on the other.

Explains much, I know.;)

Best,
 
I am a big fan of the idea of part or all of the Deep South becoming a black country formed by a successful slave rebellion, but I don't know if there's a plausible way to make that happen. Communist/socialist CSA (CSSA?) of blacks and poor whites is also good and also, as discussed, hard to make happen without ASB.
 
I am a big fan of the idea of part or all of the Deep South becoming a black country formed by a successful slave rebellion, but I don't know if there's a plausible way to make that happen. Communist/socialist CSA (CSSA?) of blacks and poor whites is also good and also, as discussed, hard to make happen without ASB.
Haiti style?
 
I am a big fan of the idea of part or all of the Deep South becoming a black country formed by a successful slave rebellion, but I don't know if there's a plausible way to make that happen. Communist/socialist CSA (CSSA?) of blacks and poor whites is also good and also, as discussed, hard to make happen without ASB.
Just having the Confederacy become independent as a whle is arguable ASB, truth to be told.

That said, them becoming Commie-land or even a continental Haiti with the Blacks tearing the slave order apart (Or even, if they feel vengeful enough, invert that order and enslave whites) is a thoroughly satisfying thought.

Though just as satisfying is having their attempts at aggressively expanding throughout Latin America fail miserably and have Mexico or some sort of Caribbean coalition wreck them good.
 
That said, them becoming Commie-land or even a continental Haiti with the Blacks tearing the slave order apart (Or even, if they feel vengeful enough, invert that order and enslave whites) is a thoroughly satisfying thought

I imagine you'd see an international coalition coming in from Europe (and if possible the USA, if it hasn't collapsed) to prevent this. "To restore order" is the excuse. "Preserving the Myth of White Invincibility" is the reality.
 
I imagine you'd see an international coalition coming in from Europe (and if possible the USA, if it hasn't collapsed) to prevent this. "To restore order" is the excuse. "Preserving the Myth of White Invincibility" is the reality.
What would happen if a Haiti style genocide occurred?They'd be trying to conquer a country full of Africans instead.
 
What would happen if a Haiti style genocide occurred?They'd be trying to conquer a country full of Africans instead.

Haiti is an island with a highly concentrated population trapped with nowhere to go. The CSA covers thousands of square miles for 5,000,000 Whites to hide in.
 
Haiti is an island with a highly concentrated population trapped with nowhere to go. The CSA covers thousands of square miles for 5,000,000 Whites to hide in.
Assuming the slaves won the revolt,even if the ex-slaves didn't succeed in wiping the Whites out,wouldn't enough have perished to make the white population a non-entity demographically?
 
We're Americans, with a capital 'A', huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts! Here's proof: his nose is cold! But there's no animal that's more faithful, that's more loyal, more loveable than the mutt. Who saw "Old Yeller?" Who cried when Old Yeller got shot at the end?...

Best,

Bill Murray, Meatballs
 
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