Today I watched a documentary about the oppressive regime in Pyongyang and the fanaticism of its citizens due to decades of indoctrination. I then thought about less long lives regimes in Germany and Cambodia tegardinf their brutality. So I wonder, how brutal can a nation realistically get, and under what circumstances. Basically, te challenge is to get a nation of even greater notoriety, savagery, fanaticism and/or danger to the outside world than OTLs DPRK. POD is no earlier than 1900 and if possible exclude surviving Nazis or Kmner Rouge for originality. Go!
AHC: worst possible nation
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The Nazi's if Hitler hadn't been in such a rush, or had actually known how to run an economy. A Nazi state going to war with the stuff they had in 1944, and with the resources so the stuff works would be a nightmare, especially since nothing else is likely to change. In OTL Hitler wanted to murder 11 million Jews and tens of millions of others. He missed the first by five million, and the second by even more, with a bit of preparation there might be no stopping them.
Sorry, I'm new to some of these ideas so could we just give a brief summary of why these nations are worse:
-So how exactly does that TL's China worsen from OTLs under Mao?
- Imperial Japan is an excellent candidate, I can't believe I didn't htink about it. Only problem is, I don't see how it could survive without being curbstomped by an anti-Japanese coalition
-Nazis don't count in this for purpose of originality and creativity. A Nazi-influenced regime though can be used. I just would like a creative approach to making countries considered 'uber-evil' in that way.
-So how exactly does that TL's China worsen from OTLs under Mao?
- Imperial Japan is an excellent candidate, I can't believe I didn't htink about it. Only problem is, I don't see how it could survive without being curbstomped by an anti-Japanese coalition
-Nazis don't count in this for purpose of originality and creativity. A Nazi-influenced regime though can be used. I just would like a creative approach to making countries considered 'uber-evil' in that way.
Well yeah of course, except that for just about every sane human being born for the last three quarters of a century, the Nazi's are the definition of pure evil. It's actually kind of hard to imagine anything worse then them in a world remotely close to OTL (Now ASB stuff then you have the Empire, or the Borg, or the Warhammer imperium).
- Ustasha Croatia that somehow survives as a pariah state could be an interesting possiblity, even if it would be a horrible place to live.
-I understand its very difficult to get a nation thats more objectively 'evil' than the Nazis unless it was some bat-s*** crazy cult that did human sacrifice and ethnic cleansing of other nations in charge. It could just be that its seen as worse than OTLs Nazis. Anyway, the title was a nation more oppressive and culturally warped than OTLs North Korea, so the candidate can be a pariah state or a major power, similar to Oceania.
-I understand its very difficult to get a nation thats more objectively 'evil' than the Nazis unless it was some bat-s*** crazy cult that did human sacrifice and ethnic cleansing of other nations in charge. It could just be that its seen as worse than OTLs Nazis. Anyway, the title was a nation more oppressive and culturally warped than OTLs North Korea, so the candidate can be a pariah state or a major power, similar to Oceania.
An South Africa that failed to resolve it's racial tensions like it did OTL would be a pretty rough place to live. The fact that they were a nuclear power (with no one outside of the Government knowing about it to boot) could certainly tip things over the edge.
Nice candidate, and original. Only problem is how do they get independence form Australia without say, Japanese intervention? Wait, thats a perfect way to get it done! Have the Japanese invade and occupy it, indoctrinating it with Japanese ideology, and soon leading to an ideology amalgamating Showa insanity with the native religions to create the ultimate crazy fest.
I had another idea around that line based on Reverse Cold Wars neo-Inca terrorist group, as in some bizzare native American terrorist group takes over and starts making human sacrifice of prisoners compulsory in order to 'get back to their old roots' or something like that.
Or maybe just going to Old Sternberg and his madness may do the trick. "It may be a crazy nation with a so called God-Emperor, but at least its a good buffer!" may be the thought of such an outside world.
I almost feel sadistic trying to come up with such evil nations. Though given the amount that came in OTL, its not that surprising, especially that even though our worlds' had some bad things, it could have been worse.
(Edit) A more radical South Africa I'd imagine would lead to a lot of serious confrontations, as I doubt either Superpower would support it during the Cold War (unless one superpower was the Nazis of course).
Victorious 3rd Reich in a walk. If it hadn't actually existed, even in only partially successful form, people would call it ASB.
A Stalinst USSR that had not be interfered with by the Great Patriotic War would have been pretty nasty, although not quite up to DPRK levels simply because you don't get multiple generations of crazy.
The two Congos, especially the Democratic Republic of Congo (Republic of Congo, aka Congo-Brazzaville is a separate, not quite as severe, train wreck) are pretty horrible. the DRP has an on-going, although currently considerably tamped down, multi-player civil war that has killed millions of people (some estimate top 5M), corruption is a national sport, atrocities by all sides in the war are fairly stunning.
Liberia was pretty much hell for a couple decades, although it seems to have greatly improved in least ten years. Sierra Leone during the 1990s was about as bad a place to live as one could thing of with one person in three displaced by a war so brutal that it might have given einsatzgruppen pause.
For the ultimate African nightmare how about someone like Macias Nguemo of Equatorial Guinea, who conscripted 7 year olds into the army and used the national stadium for mass public executions with Mary Hopkin's Those Were The Days playing over the P.A. gets control over Nigeria or the DR Congo? The body count would have been in tens of thousands.
OTL Imperial Japan would still give the Nazis a run for their money. Unit 731 anybody?
Imperial Japan was bad (really, really, really bad), but didn't have the industrial extermination of a specific race of people as part and parcel of their national ideology. They were still fucking crazy, and did committed insane atrocities, but (ASFAIK) it wasn't organized the way Nazi Germany was.
For example, you didn't have a Japanese equivalent to the Wannsee Conference, where the IJN and IJA sat down and decided to exterminate the Chinese.
A surviving Nazi Germany is certainly worse than a surviving Militarist Japan. Militarist Japan murdered civilians in huge numbers for a variety of reasons--to inspire terror in their enemies, to try to prevent insurrection or disobedience, to "toughen up" their own soldiers, etc. But there was no plan to kill every single Chinese person, no GeneralPlan Ost. A surviving Nazi Germany would try to kill every single Jewish man, woman, and child they could. They planned to eliminate 80-85% of all Poles, 50-60% of all Russians (with another 15% deported to East Siberia), and on and on. A longer-lived Nazi Germany would unleash horrors that are unimaginable. No one can give them a run for their money.
The Czechoslovak Legions manage to save Duchess Olga from the Bolshevik firing squad, Roman von Ungern-Sternberg and foreign support somehow manages to turn the balance in the favor of the Whites. The Mad Baron marries the Duchess and becomes Emperor and Autocrat of All Russias, Great Duke of Finland and Great Khan of Mongolia. Basically a revanchist military dictatorship, with the Black Hundreds being supported by the government to commit frequent pogroms and oppress minorities, pseudo-gulags and the like. Add a surviving Rasputin and the Baron's love for mysticism and the occult for a little extra madness.
Or just have His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular rule longer.
Or just have His Excellency, President for Life, Field Marshal Al Hadji Doctor Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Seas and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular rule longer.
Youngbuck89
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A bit of a stretch but....
A surviving Tsarist Russia propped up by whoever wins WWI be it Germany, Britain or America. Think how China props up North Korea and turns a blind eye. All 'subversive' elements are crushed including Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Volga Germans, Inuits, liberals, communists and other non orthodox minorities.
A separatist paranoid Afrikaan Republic that closes it self off from the world in a Universe with more socialist influence where Black South Africans win control of most of their country in the aftermath of WWII.
Germany and Austria win WWI and convince the Ottoman Empire to let some territories go but still prop up the Empire. Could lead to an Islamo-Fascist or grey wolves style leader emerging as the empire continues to crumble. Could lead to invasions of Armenia and Arab States.
Chandra Bose is backed by the Japanese and India eventually becomes a conservative traditionalist state devoted to its caste system and strange Nazi Ideas about Hinduism think Satri Devi. Non-Hindus and the poor suffer greatly.
The Morgenthau Plan is accepted after World War II leading to a famine in one of the German Republics. The wests backs a conservative reactionary regime that cracks down on its own people as Neo-Nazi movements and Communist backed insurgencies grow in popularity.
Ethiopian Derg regime lasts longer and takes advantage of the USSR surviving longer or even getting stronger by spreading its hateful ideology and making territorial gains.
A surviving Tsarist Russia propped up by whoever wins WWI be it Germany, Britain or America. Think how China props up North Korea and turns a blind eye. All 'subversive' elements are crushed including Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Volga Germans, Inuits, liberals, communists and other non orthodox minorities.
A separatist paranoid Afrikaan Republic that closes it self off from the world in a Universe with more socialist influence where Black South Africans win control of most of their country in the aftermath of WWII.
Germany and Austria win WWI and convince the Ottoman Empire to let some territories go but still prop up the Empire. Could lead to an Islamo-Fascist or grey wolves style leader emerging as the empire continues to crumble. Could lead to invasions of Armenia and Arab States.
Chandra Bose is backed by the Japanese and India eventually becomes a conservative traditionalist state devoted to its caste system and strange Nazi Ideas about Hinduism think Satri Devi. Non-Hindus and the poor suffer greatly.
The Morgenthau Plan is accepted after World War II leading to a famine in one of the German Republics. The wests backs a conservative reactionary regime that cracks down on its own people as Neo-Nazi movements and Communist backed insurgencies grow in popularity.
Ethiopian Derg regime lasts longer and takes advantage of the USSR surviving longer or even getting stronger by spreading its hateful ideology and making territorial gains.
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