AHC:Worse 19th Century Spain screw?

Does anyone have any ideas on how to screw Spain worse over the course of the 19th century than they were iOTL?
 
Cause the Catalan independence and Basaque separatist movements early and give them more power. Spain falls apart and breaks into two or three smaller countries.
 
Not sure what would cause the center to be even weaker though that would allow this...
IIRC didn't the British consider trying to channel serious support to try and encourage Catalan independence or just cause problems for the Spanish when they were still allied with the French during the late 1700s/early 1800s? It probably won't succeed in and of itself, but might an extended period of fighting first the Castilians and then the French build up a larger support base for independence? Could also throw in the French being even larger arseholes both during their occupation of and their retreat from Spain.
 
Cause the Catalan independence and Basaque separatist movements early and give them more power. Spain falls apart and breaks into two or three smaller countries.

Unlikely. Catalan and Basque nationalism didn't appear as an actual force until 1898. Before that, the Basque society was deeply divided between the Carlist Basques and the Spanish immigrant community.

In Catalonia, on the other hand, the bourgeoisie was liberal, but not really Catalanist until the Spain proved incapable of defending their mercantile interests in Cuba. And the workers in Catalonia were usually anti-Catalanist (as they associated it with the bourgeoisie) or outright anarchistic.

In any case, it's really hard to make Spain have a tougher 19th century than it already did. Pretty much everything that could go wrong went horribly wrong.
 
Unlikely. Catalan and Basque nationalism didn't appear as an actual force until 1898. Before that, the Basque society was deeply divided between the Carlist Basques and the Spanish immigrant community.

In Catalonia, on the other hand, the bourgeoisie was liberal, but not really Catalanist until the Spain proved incapable of defending their mercantile interests in Cuba. And the workers in Catalonia were usually anti-Catalanist (as they associated it with the bourgeoisie) or outright anarchistic.

In any case, it's really hard to make Spain have a tougher 19th century than it already did. Pretty much everything that could go wrong went horribly wrong.

The Carlists win the First Carlist War, Carlos V decides it's better to go back to the Middle Ages.
 
A lot of 19th century dystopian Spains have it divided in two, with the Carlists holding their heartlands, and the rest under either the Borbons or the Savoyards

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
The Carlists win the First Carlist War, Carlos V decides it's better to go back to the Middle Ages.

To be honest, not much would change if Carlos won. He would continue reigning like Fernando VII did during the ominous decade, purging the moderates like De la Rosa from Court.

And that might actually be good, since the regime would lack the social acceptance that allowed Isabel II and Narvaez to survive the 1848 revolutions
 

JJohnson

Banned
Have Spain lose the Balearic Islands, the Places of Sovereignty, and the Canary Islands, all of which are held by either France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, or the Netherlands to this day.
 

Deleted member 9338

Have Spain lose the Balearic Islands, the Places of Sovereignty, and the Canary Islands, all of which are held by either France, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy, or the Netherlands to this day.

What would cause such a loss? I can only think of the Napoleonic Wars.
 
IIRC didn't the British consider trying to channel serious support to try and encourage Catalan independence or just cause problems for the Spanish when they were still allied with the French during the late 1700s/early 1800s? It probably won't succeed in and of itself, but might an extended period of fighting first the Castilians and then the French build up a larger support base for independence? Could also throw in the French being even larger arseholes both during their occupation of and their retreat from Spain.

Is this from the Aubrey-Maturin books? I'm pretty sure it has no basis in reality.
 
A few isolated ideas (not part of a single timeline):

During the Napoleonic Wars, a British-Portuguese force occupies Galicia, and it is is later incorporated into Portugal. (Probably the least plausible idea.)

In the 1880's, France drives Berber insurrectionists out of Algeria. They run wild in the less organized Spanish Sahara, killing a large part of Spain's officer corps (including a young naval officer named Nicolás Franco). After a quixotic and expensive counterinsurgency, Spain sells its Saharan territory to France.

During the Spanish-American War, the U.S. invades the Canaries and turns them into a protectorate, which achieves independence a half-century later.
 
During the Spanish-American War, the U.S. invades the Canaries and turns them into a protectorate, which achieves independence a half-century later.

For the Canaries, the question is whether this is in place the grand battle of the two fleets that took place off of Cuba iOTL or if it is the US deciding *after* the grand battle to go ahead and take everything that they can.

In the first case, it doesn't seem likely since if the Spanish stay in the Canaries, the Americans will just leave them alone and take the advantage in the Caribbean that the Spanish are giving them.

In the second, I just can't see such an expansion of the War aims, though OTOH, I'm not sure the Philippines were in it either...

I think the Americans ended up with more in the war than they really expected to get. Fun would be if the American Commissioners in Paris demand the Canaries, it ends up in the Treaty and one more Senator votes no, rejecting the Peace treaty...
 
I think the best place to really screw Spain is the War of Spanish Succession. If Joey doesn't kick the bucket before Charley, combined with a bit stronger of an Austrian Performance, you could see European Spain partitioned between the claimants.

Charles had most of his support in the Crown of Aragon after all. If the war drags on without a truly conclusive end, you could see Aragon and the other European Territories spun off to Charles, while Castille goes to the Bourbons.

If the war takes long enough and taxes the colonies enough, this could also be the thing that sets them on the path to Rebellion. I could easily see a few ambitious Viceroys of the Spanish Empire pushing for, if not de-jure, at least de-facto independence.

Even without that, Spain losing the colonies seems like only a matter of time to me. With Spain's European presence vastly reduced by the loss of Aragon and their other territories, it seems even more certain. Once they have lost those colonies, it will be very hard for the Rump Spain to claim they are anything other than a middle weight regional power.
 
Actually, when the Portuguese revolted against Spain in 1640, the Catalans did, too.

Obviously, only Portugal won her freedom, but saying that Catalonia wasnt a thing until hundreds of years later is demostrably false.
 

katchen

Banned
A few isolated ideas (not part of a single timeline):

During the Napoleonic Wars, a British-Portuguese force occupies Galicia, and it is is later incorporated into Portugal. (Probably the least plausible idea.)

In the 1880's, France drives Berber insurrectionists out of Algeria. They run wild in the less organized Spanish Sahara, killing a large part of Spain's officer corps (including a young naval officer named Nicolás Franco). After a quixotic and expensive counterinsurgency, Spain sells its Saharan territory to France.

During the Spanish-American War, the U.S. invades the Canaries and turns them into a protectorate, which achieves independence a half-century later.
The Canaries, if occupied by the US might actually become first a territory and later a state. Unlike the people of Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Philippines or even Hawaii, the population of the Canaries, though it is Catholic and speaks Spanish, IS almost completely white. And the Canaries are in a VERY strategic location if the US wants to project it's power to Europe, being very close to the Mediteranean
. Morocco would certainly fall under US rather than French-Spanish "protection" and the Sultanate of Morocco, retain it's independence if the Canaries became American. And the same influence that motivated the US to seize the Canaries might well motivate the US to take Ceuta and Melilla for bases in the Mediiteranean with Sidi fni probably given back to Morocco. Spanish Sahara would be anyone's guess. It has low population (probably no more than 40,000) and is an entre' to the Sahara and it's mineral wealth, but it is also a committment for the US--especially the way the US likes to build railroads everyplace it can. I can already see a privately built railroad from Melilla and Ceuta through Fez, Meknes, Casablanca, Marrakesh, Agadir, Sidi Ifni and on to a port at Cape Taryafa adjacent to the Canaries. Would the US go farther- to an open ended commitment to the African Continent itself? Probably not. Spahish Sahara back to Morocco.
 
Actually, when the Portuguese revolted against Spain in 1640, the Catalans did, too.

Obviously, only Portugal won her freedom, but saying that Catalonia wasnt a thing until hundreds of years later is demostrably false.

The question is not wether Catalonia was a thing but what thing it was. The Catalan nationalist view of History is that Catalonia is a poor bullied nation older than the stones and that 1640 and 1700 were separatist ventures driven by nationalist fervor or something.

This last part is demonstrably false by just looking at what the Catalans did in those years. In 1640 the Generalitat stripped Philip IV ofhis title as Count of Barcelona (and thus kingship in Catalonia) and offered it to Louis XIII of France. When Louis made no secret that he did expect nothing of Catalonia but total integration with France and that this would mean less for the Generalitat than it had with Spain (beginning with, likely, its outright dissolution) the Generalitat switched sides and went with Spain, but at this point it was too late and Spain had to concede the Roussillon to France. This only makes more ridiculous the claims from radical Catalan nationalists that the loss of 'Catalonia Nord' was a conspiracy planned by Spain from the get go to shit over the Catalans for no reason. I kid you not but I've seen people saying that. Because everyone knows that countries have vendettas against their own people and prefer to make themselves smaller on the map in order to spite them.

In 1700 Catalonia was one of several (and I remark several) regions in the Spanish Empire that recognized the Austrian candidate as king of Spain and heir to Charles II in the whole of Spain, including Catalonia. No doubt, the memory of what the Bourbon had tried to do in 1640 played a part. But there was no attempt to proclaim a local king or prince of Catalonia, like Portugal did in 1640, or a republic like Naples did in 1647.

There was a belief, for which the Generalitat was often at odds with the kings of Aragon and later Spain, that kings had to be recognized by the Generalitat and as a result, at any point the Generalitat could strip the king of rulership over Catalonia and give it to other king. The Generalitat had tried that same thing in 1462, when John II of Aragon was stripped of the title and then offered to Henry IV of Castile, who declined it outright.
 
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