AHC/WI: Widespread domestication of foxes

So, as it says, what would be some realistic opportunities for foxes to be domesticated early on and how would their domestication possibly have impacted humanity?

Basically, this is inspired by the Russian attempts/somewhat successes at fox domestication within the last century.
 
Well foxes are less deadly than wolves so perhaps humans could domesticate them more easily. My guess is that they would replace the usage of domesticated wolves (dogs), although it would be interesting to see them coexist with dogs.
 
Nah, they replace cats. Classic verminators.

Perhaps a mixture of both? Different breeds do different things. Some foxes are used as retrievers, others as replacements for cats. Think of the size difference between a great Dane and a chiwawa, perhaps domestication could do similar things to the fox.
 
I dunno. There's often an economics to these things. I think that once cats are domesticated, there's no need for domesticated foxes. Cats occupy the territory first, which tends to block parallel domestications.
 
I dunno. There's often an economics to these things. I think that once cats are domesticated, there's no need for domesticated foxes. Cats occupy the territory first, which tends to block parallel domestications.


I agree mostly, but there are an awful lot of crazy cultural/religious things that blocked the economics of a situation. Maybe cats get associated more strongly with something evil.

Two such examples might be a huge backlash against an oppressive hegemonic society that revered cats (a much, much greater Egypt?) or religious significance, where cats are associated with something evil, like greed, sociopathy, or death. This would leave the playing field open for domesticated foxes to fill in the cat niche.

Granted, it would just be easier to domestic foxes first, but I don't know how likely that is as it seems pretty difficult, even with modern scientific-thought based techniques. On top of that, I don't know if foxes are numerous enough early enough in our history to be domesticated.

Maybe they fill both niches in a society that lacks access to either dogs or cats, and it proves to be more efficient to have both roles occupied by the same domesticate, thus leading to people adopting foxes as a preference over the cat/dog dichotomy once contact is reestablished.
 
I agree mostly, but there are an awful lot of crazy cultural/religious things that blocked the economics of a situation. Maybe cats get associated more strongly with something evil.

Two such examples might be a huge backlash against an oppressive hegemonic society that revered cats (a much, much greater Egypt?) or religious significance, where cats are associated with something evil, like greed, sociopathy, or death. This would leave the playing field open for domesticated foxes to fill in the cat niche.
Some early Christian figure in Egypt lashes out wildly against cats (which were worshiped[1]) in Egypt. Then some community of monks starts domesticating foxes (why? that's the problem - maybe their patron saint was a hypothetical St.Vulpius...)...


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1 OK, so they weren't worshiped directly, they were minions of ?Bubastis? the cat goddess. Little technicalities like that don't bother fanatics on a roll.
 
Would be intresting if there were foxes instead of certain dog types.
I can think that foxes could be used to replace terrier like dogs.
 
china already had agriculture and their zodiac before cats arrived it's a small window but i could see foxes taking hold then.
 
The best chance would be in the America's. Have one of the agricultural groups in Mexico, Southwest, or Southeast domesticate them to deal with rodents. I think the Southeast would be best, since Mexico had small hairless dogs for hunting rabbits, they could probably be used to hunt mice as well.
The Southeast had larger dogs, and more access to foxes, unlike the Southwest, so there could domesticated foxes along the Mississippi.
 
The best chance would be in the America's. Have one of the agricultural groups in Mexico, Southwest, or Southeast domesticate them to deal with rodents. I think the Southeast would be best, since Mexico had small hairless dogs for hunting rabbits, they could probably be used to hunt mice as well.
The Southeast had larger dogs, and more access to foxes, unlike the Southwest, so there could domesticated foxes along the Mississippi.
AFAIK, all nations in America had dogs. Or at least I can't think of any that didn't.

Domesticating foxes is HARD - look at the historical evidence. The Russians had to keep them in cages for ?25? generations before they got something domesticated/domesticable.
 
AFAIK, all nations in America had dogs. Or at least I can't think of any that didn't.

Domesticating foxes is HARD - look at the historical evidence. The Russians had to keep them in cages for ?25? generations before they got something domesticated/domesticable.
I did mention that fact. Thats why I don't think Mesoamerica would do it, since they already had small dog breeds.
In the Southeast, they have farming, but only medium size dogs. If for some reason they domesticated foxes, maybe the POD is a slightly friendlier type, the fox could play the role of cats in North America.
Everywhere else where there are foxes, there are cats or small dogs available and ready to go. So it seems the only logical place is in that one region.
 
did the native Americans need the equivalent of a cat? Were the native mice a danger to food stores?
No idea.
I know that the mice did live in the corn fields and were eaten by Mayans to make up for the huge lack of protein. but thats about all I know.
If the more meat eating Southeasterners had farmed enough to warrant big storerooms of corn and other plants, they might need a cat equivalent, since they wouldn't really see a need to eat mice.
 
I think the only thing that we can say about this idea is that it would be amazing because foxes are cute. But seriously, there have been studies that show that the animals we have domesticated are basically all we CAN domesticate. I could probably find it, but I'm lazy. :p
 
I think the only thing that we can say about this idea is that it would be amazing because foxes are cute. But seriously, there have been studies that show that the animals we have domesticated are basically all we CAN domesticate. I could probably find it, but I'm lazy. :p

But the Russians have domesticated them?
 
Well foxes are less deadly than wolves so perhaps humans could domesticate them more easily. My guess is that they would replace the usage of domesticated wolves (dogs), although it would be interesting to see them coexist with dogs.

The problem with this is that foxes are not as social as wolves. They are more likely to be like cats, less companion, more of a ratter and hunter of other small critters around the house. Also, dogs were good for guarding, hunting, and protection, which a fox would not.
 
By 1964 the fourth generation was already beginning to live up to the researchers' hopes. Trut can still remember the moment when she first saw a fox wag its tail at her approach. Before long, the most tame among them were so doglike that they would leap into researchers' arms and lick their faces. At times the extent of the animals' tameness surprised even the researchers. Once, in the 1970s, a worker took one of the foxes home temporarily as a pet. When Trut visited him, she found the owner taking his fox for walks, unleashed, "just like a dog. I said 'Don't do that, we'll lose it, and it belongs to the institute!'" she recalls. "He said 'just wait,' then he whistled and said, 'Coca!' It came right back."
I'd say they have the potential to be good pets, definitely not bad ones. Btw it only took nine generations.

This National Geographic article?
 
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