AHC/WI:'White' Central Asia,West and Central China,Parts of East Asia and India

Albert.Nik

Banned
Kick
As we all know,Central Asia has been the birthplace of the White race and had been dominated by White Iranians,Aryans,Tocharians and other Non-Indo-European Whites(even now like Finnic people in Russia). With a POD as early as possible,what would result in those regions remaining dominant by White people? More settled civilization capable of assimilating the Turkic and other Asian migrants built by Iranian,Tocharian,Indo-Aryan or Finnic people? What else would arrive at this?Greek or Roman settlement and assimilation?An earlier Slavic or Germanic expansion into the East?Finnic expansion?
Please note that Colonial Genocides,Nazism,concentration camps,etc are strictly prohibited in this thread. Killings should only include wars and military defeats and no civilian mass killing scenarios are allowed. Only cultured and peaceful settlements and developments like OTL Greeks,Romans,etc are allowed.
 
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As we all know,Central Asia has been the birthplace of the White race and had been dominated by White Iranians,Aryans,Tocharians and other Non-Indo-European Whites(even now like Finnic people in Russia). With a POD as early as possible,what would result in those regions remaining dominant by White people? More settled civilization capable of assimilating the Turkic and other Asian migrants built by Iranian,Tocharian,Indo-Aryan or Finnic people? What else would arrive at this?Greek or Roman settlement and assimilation?An earlier Slavic or Germanic expansion into the East?Finnic expansion?
Please note that Colonial Genocides,Nazism,concentration camps,etc are strictly prohibited in this thread. Killings should only include wars and military defeats and no civilian mass killing scenarios are allowed. Only cultured and peaceful settlements and developments like OTL Greeks,Romans,etc are allowed.
You could divert the Aryans (nomads that wrote the Vedas, not Nazis) that invaded the Indus valley civilization north toward the caucasus and create a stronger Into-European influence in Central Asia. The resulting mix could be something like Sanskrit with more influence from Chinese, Mongolian, or indigenous Siberian languages.
 
The Russian domination of the region for centuries isn’t good enough for you? :p

The Yuezhi that migrated into Bactria and northeast India at the end of the first millennium BC were initially Tocharians IIRC; they established a very long-lasting and influential state in the Kushan Empire. If you butterflied the Hephthalites with some PoD n China Tocharian dominion could be permanent.
 
Simply go with the definitions of whiteness including Turks. And then have them and Iranian people have eighteen children a family for seven hundred years.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
You could divert the Aryans (nomads that wrote the Vedas, not Nazis) that invaded the Indus valley civilization north toward the caucasus and create a stronger Into-European influence in Central Asia. The resulting mix could be something like Sanskrit with more influence from Chinese, Mongolian, or indigenous Siberian languages.
In that case,they might be absorbed into the peoples who you mentioned if they didnt have a settled life or a good population. If they are a settled people,it would give a result as per the AHC. Central Asian Iranian and Tocharian civilizations and even other Caucasian/White peoples in that region were all mostly nomadic or tribal.
The Russian domination of the region for centuries isn’t good enough for you? :p

The Yuezhi that migrated into Bactria and northeast India at the end of the first millennium BC were initially Tocharians IIRC; they established a very long-lasting and influential state in the Kushan Empire. If you butterflied the Hephthalites with some PoD n China Tocharian dominion could be permanent.
Yuezhi were Tocharian with good Iranian mixture. But they quickly became assimilated into the later invading Turks(Hepthalites). Had they been in a more large number and settled,it would have been reverse like it happened in Bulgaria and parts of Europe.
Russians(Slavs) are White and they did dominate Central Asia but now,they are in a minority. Probably a surviving United Russia could yield that result. Kazakhstan is around 25-35% White I guess but I am not sure. Uzbekistan has only 2.3-5%. Too less for once White majority region.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Since we are discussing only Tocharians,Iranians,Indo-Aryans and Finno-Ugric peoples only,nobody wants to bring in the Greek(during Alexander) or Eastern Roman(POD can be anytime during the republic era itself or even extending till Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty) angle?
They had Armenia and South Caucasus. If they had ventured North and into Kazakhstan and settled in the fertile Steppes with establishing cities and provinces names like Alexandria of the Scythia or Augusta Caspainorum or Constantinople/Rome of the Caspain itself later. What do you think of these PODs? This could allow them to easily expand their empire till Altai mountains. Also,such a strong Roman Empire would be totally unaffected by Arab invasion and other crises that weakened it earlier and later. But this POD would have to predate Huns or happen during the Macedonian dynasty. Augustus Caesar,Trajan,Hadrian,Constantine I,Basil II are some emperors who could have done it or even Justinian I.
 
Since we are discussing only Tocharians,Iranians,Indo-Aryans and Finno-Ugric peoples only,nobody wants to bring in the Greek(during Alexander) or Eastern Roman(POD can be anytime during the republic era itself or even extending till Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty) angle?
They had Armenia and South Caucasus. If they had ventured North and into Kazakhstan and settled in the fertile Steppes with establishing cities and provinces names like Alexandria of the Scythia or Augusta Caspainorum or Constantinople/Rome of the Caspain itself later. What do you think of these PODs? This could allow them to easily expand their empire till Altai mountains. Also,such a strong Roman Empire would be totally unaffected by Arab invasion and other crises that weakened it earlier and later. But this POD would have to predate Huns or happen during the Macedonian dynasty. Augustus Caesar,Trajan,Hadrian,Constantine I,Basil II are some emperors who could have done it or even Justinian I.
There are only three posters on this thread besides yourself. You aren't going to get each mentioning a dozen civilizations form centuries apart in those three posts.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Andronavo and Afanasevo cultures practicing some type of settled or semi settled Agriculture could result in this. Those were mostly Pastoral nomadic in OTL. Andronavo is Indo-Iranian and Afanasevo is Tocharians and both might have had an Uralic minority. The regions above were actually once Heavily Indo-European dominated but they were mostly nomadic pastoralists which led them to have a smaller and a less stable foothold and hence lost it. What kinds of Agriculture do you think they could practice and invent? Shifting Cultivation? Millet growing and Birds domestication? If you want you can include other Indo-Europeans and Uralic people also. You could even have an Agricultural method spread to them from the East and the Altaic Nomadic Pastoralists could also be settled and agricultural first and hence are more dominant in the East and the method spreads to all these erstwhile Indo-European and Uralic dominated regions.

Mods note that this is an Old thread. I am continuing here to talk and discuss different types of innovations in Society and Agriculture to retain their foothold in these regions and thought it would be easier to continue here than start other thread. If title is unacceptable,the Mods can edit it. I will have edited to an extent but saying so if it is still unacceptable. Please note this point @CalBear .
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Is agriculture advantegeous compared to nomadism there?
According to me,with an earlier POD when most societies hadn't taken hold here,Agriculture is. If you have all or majority of the communities take up to Agriculture,I think it is definitely on the advantage side. That means,if with this POD,the Tocharians begin Agriculture,it should spread to Turks/Mongols too. If one begins and the other doesn't that could or could not be on the advantage side.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
No or lesser Mongolian invasion, there's no telling how many they killed.
AFAIK,Tocharians had gone extinct by the time the Mongols invaded(9th Century or so). So had the Scythians(5th Century or so). But a no Mongol invasion could give a Slavic or Persian Central Asia.
 
AFAIK,Tocharians had gone extinct by the time the Mongols invaded(9th Century or so). So had the Scythians(5th Century or so). But a no Mongol invasion could give a Slavic or Persian Central Asia.
Turks were already dominant by then, to have a non-Turkic Central Asia(at least not the Southern part) you would need to go back to like the battle of Talas and PODs surrounding that.
 
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This might be plausible if the Macedonian Empire lasted much longer and there was a large degree of west to east migration and/or cultural homogenization within the Empire.

The lighter-skinned, blue-eyed appearance of some central asians has inspired speculation and widespread myths about central asian descendants of Alexander the Great, but there's no firm evidence to back this up. Population geneticist Razib Khan breaks down the research behind this (see Alexander's Soldiers Left No Mark).
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
This might be plausible if the Macedonian Empire lasted much longer and there was a large degree of west to east migration and/or cultural homogenization within the Empire.

The lighter-skinned, blue-eyed appearance of some central asians has inspired speculation and widespread myths about central asian descendants of Alexander the Great, but there's no firm evidence to back this up. Population geneticist Razib Khan breaks down the research behind this (see Alexander's Soldiers Left No Mark).
Those Central Asians have partial of complete descent from erstwhile dominant Tocharians and Scythians. Even many in the regions where the Greeks never went or could even have went claim that. The Kalash,Burusho,Pashayi live in the Himalayan valleys in Northern Kashmir far from the Greek ruled lands claim that unknowingly. That has been disproved and they are descendants of Northern Indo-Aryan tribes. The descendants of Indo-Greeks are only concentrated in Afghanistan,Pakistan and Punjab region and even there less as waves of Iranian and Tocharian peoples invaded after the Indo-Greeks ended. Nothing beyond. All others are descended from Tocharians,Iranian peoples and Indo-Aryans.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Do we all know this?

Last I checked, the birthplace of the "White race" was the minds of early modern racists.
Ignore the older posts. That is an October 2018 post. I was talking about the Steppe and Caucasus though. No more discussion about the old posts.
 
Those Central Asians have partial of complete descent from erstwhile dominant Tocharians and Scythians. Even many in the regions where the Greeks never went or could even have went claim that. The Kalash,Burusho,Pashayi live in the Himalayan valleys in Northern Kashmir far from the Greek ruled lands claim that unknowingly. That has been disproved and they are descendants of Northern Indo-Aryan tribes. The descendants of Indo-Greeks are only concentrated in Afghanistan,Pakistan and Punjab region and even there less as waves of Iranian and Tocharian peoples invaded after the Indo-Greeks ended. Nothing beyond. All others are descended from Tocharians,Iranian peoples and Indo-Aryans.
For some reason this part of the world attracts a disproportionate amount of we-wuzzery, the claims of Macedonian descent should be situated in the same age of nazi exhibitions to Tibet that inspired Indiana Jones movies.
The discovery of a connection between Sanskit and European languages was also used in self-serving theories that tried to justify British Rule in Indian by playing up the idea of a closely related Into-European family of peoples. The rise of Hindu nationalism is currently adding a new wave of historical revisionism relating to the region's pre-history.
 
As we all know,Central Asia has been the birthplace of the White race and had been dominated by White Iranians,Aryans,Tocharians and other Non-Indo-European Whites(even now like Finnic people in Russia). With a POD as early as possible,what would result in those regions remaining dominant by White people? More settled civilization capable of assimilating the Turkic and other Asian migrants built by Iranian,Tocharian,Indo-Aryan or Finnic people? What else would arrive at this?Greek or Roman settlement and assimilation?An earlier Slavic or Germanic expansion into the East?Finnic expansion?
Please note that Colonial Genocides,Nazism,concentration camps,etc are strictly prohibited in this thread. Killings should only include wars and military defeats and no civilian mass killing scenarios are allowed. Only cultured and peaceful settlements and developments like OTL Greeks,Romans,etc are allowed.

We don't "all know" that Central Asia is the birthplace of the "white race" because that's not only not true, it's a 19th-century understanding of how race works. You have this obsession with "whitening" lots of the world and it's very hard to respond productively to you because your understanding of what that means is not in sync with other people here or with the modern world. I would hate to have to ban you, but I don't really know what else would be the appropriate solution to deal with someone who's not getting the message about what this board is for.

Kicked for a week.

Please take the time to review what you've posted here and how people have responded. Alternate migrations are a perfectly valid topic of discussion, how "white" those would make various parts of Asia are not.
 
AFAIK,Tocharians had gone extinct by the time the Mongols invaded(9th Century or so). So had the Scythians(5th Century or so). But a no Mongol invasion could give a Slavic or Persian Central Asia.

The Scythian language and people survived until the 12th century most surely. Khotan being the last remnant of Scytho-Tocharian civilization.
 
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