AHC/WI: West-to-East conquerors in Eurasia after Alexander

[Zuvarq]

Eurasia has had an abundance of East-to-West conquerors, but only a few West-to-East conquerors.

What are some OTL leaders, or OTL nations/polities, that could charge east and found an empire, however short-lived?

Or are there hypothetical situations with ATL figures in which this could occur?

 

[B_Munro]

Eurasia has had an abundance of East-to-West conquerors, but only a few West-to-East conquerors.

What are some OTL leaders, or OTL nations/polities, that could charge east and found an empire, however short-lived?

Or are there hypothetical situations with ATL figures in which this could occur?

Well, if you butterfly the rise of the Safavids and Iran remains partially disunited and Sunni, I think the Ottomans could have marched east to the borders of China and Mughal India...

Bruce

 

[B_Munro]

And of course there are the Russians, for some very slow values of "charged"...

Bruce

 

[strangeland]

Trajan conquered Mesopotamia, but the Romans were unable to hold it for very long. Is there any chance for a Roman Alexander, or even a Byzantine one?

 

[wolf_brother]

I suppose modern figures like Napoleon or Hitler don't count?

 

[Zuvarq]

Several hypothetical scenarios that may be implausible:
- All Christian states in Eastern Europe other than the Teutonic Order and Swedish Finland fall to the Mongols, but then massive revolts start happening, even by some of the steppe peoples. Crusade east?
- Partially-insane King of a longer-surviving, larger Jerusalem heads east, hoping to conquer until he reaches the Kingdom of Prester John. There have been multiple leaders this crazy IOTL so the idea isn't ASB. He wouldn't have to reach any farther than Basra, though, and probably wouldn't be able to.
- Gunpowder invented in Byzantine empire somehow instead of China. Two hundred years later, whoever inhabits OTL Ukraine decides to ride east with their guns and forge a vast empire.
- Super overextended Seljuk Empire. The Byzantine Emperor literally recreates the Empire of Alexander.

I suppose modern figures like Napoleon or Hitler don't count?

They do if it's before 1900. But it can't be OTL Napoleon.

 

[wolf_brother]

Several hypothetical scenarios that may be implausible:
- All Christian states in Eastern Europe other than the Teutonic Order and Swedish Finland fall to the Mongols, but then massive revolts start happening, even by some of the steppe peoples. Crusade east?

OTL's various northern crusades don't count?

 

[Tobit]

The conquest of Siberia by the Russians would be an example. They went so far east they crossed the international dateline and ended up in Alaska. Also while I get the feeling conquests based on Naval achievements wouldn't count but you got to hand it to Alphonso de Albequerque for rapid conquest and empire building.

Not to mention the conquests of the Muslims from the Rashidun to Nadir Shah all tried to conquer India from power bases in the West.

Also Napoleon did explicitly try to copy cat Alexander because he envisioned his invasion of Egypt as the start of a Middle Eastern empire.

 

[Zuvarq]

OTL's various northern crusades don't count?

They didn't go too far inland.

 

[Falecius]

The Safavids under Ismail Shah would count. They conquered from Azerbaijan to Afghanistan.
Also, Ivan Groznyj would surely qualify.

 

[carlton_bach]

Neither are there a lot of east-to-west conquerors, really, except the Tang. You mostly have from-the-middle-outwards conquests. Alexander was a bit unusual. but the Muslim conquest, Persian Empire-building and Russian expanision went in the same direction, so west-to-east actually has three-and-a-half precedents against one for east-to-west. (Two if you count Goguryeo)

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Neither are there a lot of east-to-west conquerors, really, except the Tang. You mostly have from-the-middle-outwards conquests. Alexander was a bit unusual. but the Muslim conquest, Persian Empire-building and Russian expanision went in the same direction, so west-to-east actually has three-and-a-half precedents against one for east-to-west. (Two if you count Goguryeo)

Koguryo? Since when was it a state that launched a sizable east-west conquest?

 

[democracy101]

Koguryo? Since when was it a state that launched a sizable east-west conquest?

Goguryeo went both ways. It originated in Jolbon (Southwest Manchuria) and expanded east to the Sea of Japan, while it also went west by invading the Later Yan, capturing several fortresses in both the Liaodong Peninsula and Liaoxi, causing the general Feng Ba to stage a coup and assassinate the last ruler, Murong Xi. Goguryeo then temporarily appointed the governor of Youzhou as the ruler, until Gao Yun, who was a descendant of Goguryeo, was declared the new ruler of Northern Yan, causing Goguryeo forces to withdraw. Although he was assassinated a few years later by Feng Ba as well, both the Wei and Goguryeo ended up dividing the Yan's territory by 436 when it collapsed for the last time. Goguryeo also temporarily seized territory west of the Liao River after the first war against the Sui, although it voluntarily gave it up soon after.

As a sidenote, I am currently working on the mentioned details in my current TL, although the eventual outcome will be substantially different.

 

[euromellows]

Well technically Britain might meet this definition by virtue of having Egypt, Yemen, India, Singapore and Hong Kong all under its control (all before 1900 too).

 

[carlton_bach]

Koguryo? Since when was it a state that launched a sizable east-west conquest?

Sizeable would be the problem, of course, but that blob into modern-day Northern China didn't just happen.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Goguryeo went both ways. It originated in Jolbon (Southwest Manchuria) and expanded east to the Sea of Japan, while it also went west by invading the Later Yan, capturing several fortresses in both the Liaodong Peninsula and Liaoxi, causing the general Feng Ba to stage a coup and assassinate the last ruler, Murong Xi. Goguryeo then temporarily appointed the governor of Youzhou as the ruler, until Gao Yun, who was a descendant of Goguryeo, was declared the new ruler of Northern Yan, causing Goguryeo forces to withdraw. Although he was assassinated a few years later by Feng Ba as well, both the Wei and Goguryeo ended up dividing the Yan's territory by 436 when it collapsed for the last time. Goguryeo also temporarily seized territory west of the Liao River after the first war against the Sui, although it voluntarily gave it up soon after.

As a sidenote, I am currently working on the mentioned details in my current TL, although the eventual outcome will be substantially different.

I was thinking of Koguryo's expansion on a north-south axis, because I'm pretty sure they invaded Lelang from the north and Manchuria from the south, but I admit I didn't think about the Liaodong Peninsula.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Sizeable would be the problem, of course, but that blob into modern-day Northern China didn't just happen.

The parts of China under Koguryo's control were, for the most part, not actually Northern China at the time, and weren't that large. Smaller than most of the Chinese states at the time too.

 

[democracy101]

I was thinking of Koguryo's expansion on a north-south axis, because I'm pretty sure they invaded Lelang from the north and Manchuria from the south, but I admit I didn't think about the Liaodong Peninsula.

Well, like most empires, Goguryeo expanded in all directions, eventually seizing half of Baekje's territory and directly controlling half of Manchuria at its height.

The parts of China under Koguryo's control were, for the most part, not actually Northern China at the time, and weren't that large. Smaller than most of the Chinese states at the time too.

Again, as I stated earlier, Goguryeo temporarily occupied the Later Yan territory, which was a small part of China Proper, for less than a year, by temporarily installing a governor as a puppet ruler, although the gain was probably not substantial. In an ATL, using more direct methods earlier on in order to subdue Baekje and its allies, then expanding into China Proper within a decade or so afterward, would certainly result in "sizeable" conquests, although I'm still working on the details.

 

[carlton_bach]

The parts of China under Koguryo's control were, for the most part, not actually Northern China at the time, and weren't that large. Smaller than most of the Chinese states at the time too.

Well, yes. That is why I have my reservations in counting that instance. It's a bit like considering Trajan's Parthian war on par with the Muslim Conquest or Alexander's campaigns.

 

[Magnum]

Eurasia has had an abundance of East-to-West conquerors, but only a few West-to-East conquerors.

What are some OTL leaders, or OTL nations/polities, that could charge east and found an empire, however short-lived?

Or are there hypothetical situations with ATL figures in which this could occur?

In the wars of the Diadochi, Antigonos defeats all the others and his forces, probably under the command of his son Demetrius, reach the border with India. The empire probably falls apart once Demetrius dies.

(although, technically, this would be a civil war instead of a conquest)