AHC/WI: United Kingdom national football team

sirjackalot

AHC: Have the UK have one singular football team in national competitions instead of an England, Wales, Scotland, NI national teams.

WI: How much more successful would a UK national team have been in history if you combined all the best players from Wales, Scotland and NI with the best England players? Surely they would have won more than just 1 world cup right? Your thoughts?
 

Politibrit

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest maintaining the Olympics as the premier international football competition for far longer than OTL-which would obviously increase pressure on the four nations to compete as one on a permanent basis to maximise their chances of success.

In terms of how successful they would be, it might not make a huge difference to the present day, given that a theoretical Team GB would pretty much just be England with Bale and possibly a couple of other Welsh players thrown in-but I can't help but think that they would be extremely successful in the 1960s, time when you combined likes of Denis Law and George Best with the England team of the 1966 era.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
Politibrit said:
Off the top of my head, I'd suggest maintaining the Olympics as the premier international football competition for far longer than OTL-which would obviously increase pressure on the four nations to compete as one on a permanent basis to maximise their chances of success.

In terms of how successful they would be, it might not make a huge difference to the present day, given that a theoretical Team GB would pretty much just be England with Bale and possibly a couple of other Welsh players thrown in-but I can't help but think that they would be extremely successful in the 1960s, time when you combined likes of Denis Law and George Best with the England team of the 1966 era.
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Don't forget a whole bunch of Scottish/Welsh Liverpool players during the 1980s: Hansen, Souness, Nicol, Dalglish, Rush. A Liverpool-plus UK team during the 1980s would have been very powerful.

In the 1990s-early 2000s, Giggs would have easily taken a starting-11 position.

Right now, Andy Robertson would have become No.1 LB in a hypothetical UK team.
 
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Orangecar

Banned
No football world cup or at least a less commercilized and global world cup could do the trick. Many national teams were "amateur" until the 70's and the olympic tournament was also amateur, so the thing that made the world cup more unique was that some national teams picked their pros. Keep national teams amateur and there is little difference between the Olympics and the world cup(in fact the olympics were more diverse and qualification was more spread out between different continents, whereas the world cup didn't really live up to its name being heaviky biased toward European teams)
That could result in a UK football team emerging earlier and being more prominent. The equal presitige of the World Cup and the Olympics and perhaps Fifa and the IOC refusing to allow england, scotland and wales to compete sepratley would force a merger
 

Mike D

The problem is that the national FAs don't want a UK team - as it stands they've all got a seat at the table whereas if they went to a combined national side there'd be a lot of pressure for the four FAs to lose their seats and be replaced with a combined UK representative meaning the four nations lose a lot of their power in the game.

A combined UK side should be much better than England alone (as pointed out above, the "other" contingent at Liverpool alone through the 70s and 80s would have been a hell of a side) if you can get past the politics. "Team UK" should have been in the running for at least one or two extra World Cups through the 70s and 80s - I can't imagine Graeme Souness letting Maradona wander past him quite as easily as Peter Reid did in the '86 Quarter Final for a start. Diego would still have Souey's studs embedded somewhere in his lower back now.
 

sirjackalot

Orangecar said:
No football world cup or at least a less commercilized and global world cup could do the trick. Many national teams were "amateur" until the 70's and the olympic tournament was also amateur, so the thing that made the world cup more unique was that some national teams picked their pros. Keep national teams amateur and there is little difference between the Olympics and the world cup(in fact the olympics were more diverse and qualification was more spread out between different continents, whereas the world cup didn't really live up to its name being heaviky biased toward European teams)
That could result in a UK football team emerging earlier and being more prominent. The equal presitige of the World Cup and the Olympics and perhaps Fifa and the IOC refusing to allow england, scotland and wales to compete sepratley would force a merger
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I've always wondered what International Football would be like if the Olympic gold medal in Men's football still mattered. But wasn't the main argument for having the World cup is so they didn't have to share the attention?
 

Pseudo

As an aside, assuming that a UK national team means UK-wide leagues then you've probably butterflied away a lot of support for Scottish independence, especially in Glasgow.
 

sparky42

sirjackalot said:
AHC: Have the UK have one singular football team in national competitions instead of an England, Wales, Scotland, NI national teams.

WI: How much more successful would a UK national team have been in history if you combined all the best players from Wales, Scotland and NI with the best England players? Surely they would have won more than just 1 world cup right? Your thoughts?
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Given the NI association’s is what’s left from the all Ireland association I’m not sure how you would have them as part of a UK wide association.
 

Politibrit

sparky42 said:
Given the NI association’s is what’s left from the all Ireland association I’m not sure how you would have them as part of a UK wide association.
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Simple. If a UK team was established as the only national representative prior to Irish independence, then it seems likely that the All-Ireland association wouldn't exist to begin with. If the UK team started after independence, then the de facto Northern Ireland association would be amalgamated into the UK wide structure along with the English, Scottish, and Welsh FAs.
 

King_Arthur

One way to do it would be the SFA never being established and Queens' Park joining the FA. A more realistic outcome though would be like Rugby where the Home Nations all have separate teams that compete in international competitions but there is a joint team that tours once every four or so years.
 
Fletch

Fletch

The latest point this could have happened was just after the Second World War when the leagues were being re-established. There were a few friendly matches of Great Britain v Europe and Great Britain v the Rest of the World around this time.

The principle issue with a combined UK team is the entrenched leagues in England and Scotland, and to a lesser degree Northern Ireland. When the leagues were being recreated after the war there was a small window for a united league which would have led to a united national team. Other than that, you are going back to the Victorian era for it to work.

The Old Firm with Premier League money would be scary for World football.
 

white crowe

It doesn't seem to farfetched that a group of other countries take issue with the UK essentially entering four teams and seeking to either establish the principle of one country one team or for countries to be allowed enter regional teams if they wished.

Possibly something from the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War. Perhaps a drive for the SSR's to be represented.
 
Fletch

Fletch

white crowe said:
It doesn't seem to farfetched that a group of other countries take issue with the UK essentially entering four teams and seeking to either establish the principle of one country one team or for countries to be allowed enter regional teams if they wished.

Possibly something from the Eastern Bloc during the Cold War. Perhaps a drive for the SSR's to be represented.
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So long as the four FAs hold their permanent places on the IFAB board, their status is secure. Cold War or not.
 

Devvy

Donor
Whilst the four FAs have the ability to veto any FIFA proposal in IFAB, and thus any changes to the game, they don't have any ability to veto FIFA's decisions with regards to footballing competitions. FIFA could, if it really wanted to, force the UK to field a national team if it wanted to enter FIFA competitions (which would be separate from their membership of IFAB), but somehow I can't see that happening.

Not only are there a ton of other regional national teams (Faroe Islands within Denmark, Hong Kong within China, Gibraltar and other overseas territories being British, Puerto Rico being American, etc etc etc) apart from the whole Eng/Sco/Wal/NI within the UK, but current FIFA statutes themselves recognise the four national associations within the UK explicitly, which would have to be overturned first - with all other regional associations voting against such a change as it would jeopardise their own existence. Regional associations are permitted by FIFA statue, as long as it's with the "permission" of the mother country association (and being no British FA, there isn't anyone to veto it).
 
Jape

Jape

pre-1900 but perhaps association football takes off big on the continent before it grabs the British public, meaning France (or someone else) proposes a friendly international - due to the sport not being limited mainly to the Home Islands, the English and Scots don't play each other for an 'international' match and instead the UK puts forward a Union-wide side to take on the dastardly foriegners, cementing the practice going forward?
 

King_Arthur

Jape said:
pre-1900 but perhaps association football takes off big on the continent before it grabs the British public, meaning France (or someone else) proposes a friendly international - due to the sport not being limited mainly to the Home Islands, the English and Scots don't play each other for an 'international' match and instead the UK puts forward a Union-wide side to take on the dastardly foriegners, cementing the practice going forward?
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I doubt that's possible because football stems from village mob football that was adopted by English (and Scottish) Public Schools in the early 19th Century, with the game spreading to the northern working class in the 1860s and 70s. While other countries had mob football (Italy is a prime example) none had the Public Schools system and as the Industrial Revolution started in the UK, the industrial working class was the most firmly established in the world. Also, Cricket and Horse Racing had been organised for well over a century at that point so England had a background of other organised sports.

Mike D said:
Throw Southall, Hansen, Nicol, Souness, Dalglish and Rush into the England side and they probably take it home in 1986 too.
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The British team of the 1980s would be unbeatable. In 1982 you could line up like this -

GK Pat Jennings
RB Phil Neal
CB Phil Thompson
CB Alan Hansen
LB Kenny Sansom
RW Steve Coppell
CM Graeme Souness
CM Trevor Brooking
LW Graham Rix
ST Kevin Keegan
ST Kenny Dalglish

On the bench you have the likes of Ray Clemence, Peter Shilton, Martin O'Neill, Bobby Robson, Trevor Francis, Gerry Armstrong, Gordon Strachan, Alex McLeish, Glenn Hoddle and Ian Rush

In 1986 -

GK Peter Shilton
RB Gary M. Stevens
CB Terry Butcher
CB Alex McLeish
LB Kenny Sansom
RW Norman Whiteside
CM Graeme Souness
CM Bryan Robson
LW John Barnes
ST Ian Rush
ST Gary Lineker

On the bench you have the likes of Pat Jennings, Neville Southall, Viv Anderson, Nigel Worthington, Chris Waddle, Gordon Strachan, Glenn Hoddle, Ray Wilkins, Peter Beardsley, Graeme Sharp and Mark Hughes
 
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