AHC/WI Type 42 with VLS Sea Wolf system?

The Sea Wolf missile system was tested from 70 to 77, so the first batch of type 42 destroyers are not a possibility, but it have been deployed in a VLS configuration from batch 2 onwards? The Sea Wolf was tested as a VLS launched system on the HMS Loch Fada with those tests ending in 70 without further development until the 80's. I don’t think a viable VLS system could have been brought to service in the batch 1 Type 42’s, but the development time would allow for it to be viable on the batch 2 hulls. So the first question that I have to ask is if its even possible for such a system to be deployed in a type 42 hull?

If the testing had resulted in a viable system being developed for the Batch 2 type 42’s would there have been the political will to future proof the fleet in such a way? And how would the performance of a VLS armed type 42 have altered the Falklands war, as well as the fleet being deployed with a preponderance of Sea Wolves rather than Sea Darts. Secondly would the Type 42’s have lasted longer in service? And would their existence have altered the building patterns of the united kingdom?
 
If you are simply taking the Sea Dart out of the T42 and replacing it with Sea Wolf it would be easier to order 4 extra Type 22 Batch 1 in 1976-77 instead of the 4 Type 42 Batch 2, which were ordered in the same time period. Then order 6 Type 22 Batch 2 in 1978-79 IIRC instead of the OTL orders for the first 2 Type 22 Batch 2 and the 4 Type 42 Batch 3.

The completion dates for the 4 Type 42 Batch 2 are as follows:

19/09/80 Exeter
31/10/81 Southampton
08/04/83 Nottingham
09/07/82 Liverpool

If the 4 Type 42 VLS or 4 extra Type 22 Batch 1 were ordered at the same time and built in the same time that gives the Royal Navy 2 extra Sea Wolf armed ships in time for the Falklands War, which increases the number of Sea Wolf equipped ships available when Argentina invaded the Falklands from 3 to 5.
 
If you are simply taking the Sea Dart out of the T42 and replacing it with Sea Wolf it would be easier to order 4 extra Type 22 Batch 1 in 1976-77 instead of the 4 Type 42 Batch 2, which were ordered in the same time period. Then order 6 Type 22 Batch 2 in 1978-79 IIRC instead of the OTL orders for the first 2 Type 22 Batch 2 and the 4 Type 42 Batch 3.

The completion dates for the 4 Type 42 Batch 2 are as follows:

19/09/80 Exeter
31/10/81 Southampton
08/04/83 Nottingham
09/07/82 Liverpool

If the 4 Type 42 VLS or 4 extra Type 22 Batch 1 were ordered at the same time and built in the same time that gives the Royal Navy 2 extra Sea Wolf armed ships in time for the Falklands War, which increases the number of Sea Wolf equipped ships available when Argentina invaded the Falklands from 3 to 5.
Sorry but why would the RN replace a long range area air defence system (Sea Dart) with a short range point defence system (Sea Wolf.)

I'm curious how does this improve things ?
 
Sorry but why would the RN replace a long range area air defence system (Sea Dart) with a short range point defence system (Sea Wolf.)

I'm curious how does this improve things ?
You are asking the wrong person. GSpectre started the thread, not me.
 
You are asking the wrong person. GSpectre started the thread, not me.

Sorry my read on your post was that you were proposing a "rip and replace" of Sea Dart with Seawolf. It wasn't clear to me if GSpectre was proposing sea wolf as a supplement to sea dart or a replacement.
 
Sorry my read on your post was that you were proposing a "rip and replace" of Sea Dart with Seawolf. It wasn't clear to me if GSpectre was proposing sea wolf as a supplement to sea dart or a replacement.
AFAIK the only place where VLS Sea Wolf could have been fitted on a Type 42 is where the Sea Dart launcher is, that is unless the helicopter facilities were sacrificed.

However, IIRC there was a proposal to fit Type 42 with a lightweight version of Sea Wolf, that used a pair of quadruple launchers similar to the ones that Sea Cat used, but AFAIK they had a pair of Daleks fitted instead.
 
AFAIK the only place where VLS Sea Wolf could have been fitted on a Type 42 is where the Sea Dart launcher is, that is unless the helicopter facilities were sacrificed.

However, IIRC there was a proposal to fit Type 42 with a lightweight version of Sea Wolf, that used a pair of quadruple launchers similar to the ones that Sea Cat used, but AFAIK they had a pair of Daleks fitted instead.
Thanks that makes sense.
 
AFAIK what let the Batch 1 Type 42s down in the Falklands was their Type 965P radars. AFAIK the Batch 2 and 3 ships with the Type 1022 radar were much more capable, but only one of them (Exeter) was ready in time to fight in the war.
 
AFAIK what let the Batch 1 Type 42s down in the Falklands was their Type 965P radars. AFAIK the Batch 2 and 3 ships with the Type 1022 radar were much more capable, but only one of them (Exeter) was ready in time to fight in the war.
Interesting thanks.

IMHO while I accept that Sea Dart could have done better during the Falklands it didn't do to bad a job in my view. I've read accounts that suggest the Argentine strike air craft often dropped to low level out of concern for being targeted by Sea Dart. The importance of this shouldn't be overlooked in my view. Plus a number of air craft were shot down by Sea Dart.
 
Does anybody know if Type 42 was big enough to take the Type 988/Broomstick radar? The Type 42 Batch 1&2 hull is smaller than the Dutch Tromp class, but the Batch 3 hull is larger. Type 42 and the Tromp class use the same Olympus/Tyne COGOG machinery, but they have different power ratings according to their Wikipaedia entries.

At present my thinking is that the RN should have gone the other way. That is it should have bought Broomstick and fitted it to Bristol and 14 Type 42 (with enlarged hulls and uprated gas turbines if necessary) in place of the 8 Type 21 and 6 Type 42 Batch 1 of OTL. The larger hull might be an advantage because it may mean that the hangar and flight deck could be enlarged for 2 Lynx or one Merlin sized helicopter.

If the Type 42 Batch III hull was large enough to take the sonars and data processing equipment I was going to have more Type 42s built in place of Type 22, bringing the total to 36 vice the 8 T21, 14 T22 and 14 T42.

With another 8 Sea Dart systems on order in the early 1970s for the ships being built in place of the Type 21 I thought there was more chance of Land Dart surviving the 1974 Defence Review and it being purchased to replace Bloodhound in the RAF and Thunderbird in the British Army.

The next stage for the RN in the Sea Dart Wank was for GWS 31 Sea Dart to survive the 1981 Defence Review and a VL Sea Dart to be developed for Type 23. The R&D costs would be paid for with the money used for the 1980s upgrades of Sea Wolf.

This leaves the original GWS 25 Sea Wolf with no Type 22s to fit it to (there would be no Sea Wolf Leander refits either). However, IIRC the Invincible class was to have been fitted with 3 Sea Wolf systems, but they were deleted by Lord Carrington because he thought that there would be enough Sea Wolf armed frigates to escort them. ITTL no Sea Wolf armed frigates were in prospect in 1973 so he kept them on the Invincible class.
 
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WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Does anybody know if Type 42 was big enough to take the Type 988/Broomstick radar? The Type 42 Batch 1&2 hull is smaller than the Dutch Tromp class, but the Batch 3 hull is larger. Type 42 and the Tromp class use the same Olympus/Tyne COGOG machinery, but they have different power ratings according to their Wikipaedia entries.

At present my thinking is that the RN should have gone the other way. That is it should have bought Broomstick and fitted it to Bristol and 14 Type 42 (with enlarged hulls and uprated gas turbines if necessary) in place of the 8 Type 21 and 6 Type 42 Batch 1 of OTL. The larger hull might be an advantage because it may mean that the hangar and flight deck could be enlarged for 2 Lynx or one Merlin sized helicopter.

If the Type 42 Batch III hull was large enough to take the sonars and data processing equipment I was going to have more Type 42s built in place of Type 22, bringing the total to 36 vice the 8 T21, 14 T22 and 14 T42.

With another 8 Sea Dart systems on order in the early 1970s for the ships being built in place of the Type 21 I thought there was more chance of Land Dart surviving the 1974 Defence Review and it being purchased to replace Bloodhound in the RAF and Thunderbird in the British Army.

The next stage for the RN in the Sea Dart Wank was for GWS 31 Sea Dart to survive the 1981 Defence Review and a VL Sea Dart to be developed for Type 23. The R&D costs would be paid for with the money used for the 1980s upgrades of Sea Wolf.

This leaves the original GWS 25 Sea Wolf with no Type 22s to fit it to (there would be no Sea Wolf Leander refits either). However, IIRC the Invincible class was to have been fitted with 3 Sea Wolf systems, but they were deleted by Lord Carrington because he thought that there would be enough Sea Wolf armed frigates to escort them. ITTL no Sea Wolf armed frigates were in prospect in 1973 so he kept them on the Invincible class.

According to SALAMDERS ILLUSTRATED GUIDE to "Modern Destroyers" there was an agreement between the Dutch & UK govt's that the RN would buy the "3D Broomstick" radar (which was also planned for the stillborn CVA-01 carrier) for the planned Type 42's if the Dutch bought the SeaDart system for their "Tromp" class.

This agreement fell through though when the Dutch said SeaDart was too costly and labour intensive, thus the RN had to fit the obsolete 992/965 radars until the 1022 sets were fitted.

Regards filers.
 
Sorry my read on your post was that you were proposing a "rip and replace" of Sea Dart with Seawolf. It wasn't clear to me if GSpectre was proposing sea wolf as a supplement to sea dart or a replacement.

My own thoughts were confused to say the least :p, that said i was looking for a way to get the VLS system deployed on RN ships by the early eighties, my first thought was to put them on Leanders, but that didn't really seem to work. Then i wondered if they could be squeezed into a Type 42. Continuing that line of thought I'm now wondering if the Bristol could have been refitted with a VLS Sea Wolf system during her 76 refit as a proof of concept, perhaps in place of her Limbo? Only for the Batch 3 Type 42's to include a couple of VLS cells, or possibly a mixed Sea Dart/Sea Wolf VLS system that was developed from what was observed on the Bristol's deployment.

The main reason i went with using the Sea wolf as the missile for the RN to implement a VLS system was that it was already tested. The orginal missile trials included work done on a VLS system, although nothing came of it. I've never heard of the Sea Dart being adapted, or even any trials run on adapting it to a VLS system, if i'm wrong about that though feel free to point me in the right direction.

AFAIK the only place where VLS Sea Wolf could have been fitted on a Type 42 is where the Sea Dart launcher is, that is unless the helicopter facilities were sacrificed.

However, IIRC there was a proposal to fit Type 42 with a lightweight version of Sea Wolf, that used a pair of quadruple launchers similar to the ones that Sea Cat used, but AFAIK they had a pair of Daleks fitted instead.

Could the RN have implemented a Russian solution and put them under the helicopter pad?

Does anybody know if Type 42 was big enough to take the Type 988/Broomstick radar? The Type 42 Batch 1&2 hull is smaller than the Dutch Tromp class, but the Batch 3 hull is larger. Type 42 and the Tromp class use the same Olympus/Tyne COGOG machinery, but they have different power ratings according to their Wikipaedia entries.

At present my thinking is that the RN should have gone the other way. That is it should have bought Broomstick and fitted it to Bristol and 14 Type 42 (with enlarged hulls and uprated gas turbines if necessary) in place of the 8 Type 21 and 6 Type 42 Batch 1 of OTL. The larger hull might be an advantage because it may mean that the hangar and flight deck could be enlarged for 2 Lynx or one Merlin sized helicopter.

If the Type 42 Batch III hull was large enough to take the sonars and data processing equipment I was going to have more Type 42s built in place of Type 22, bringing the total to 36 vice the 8 T21, 14 T22 and 14 T42.

With another 8 Sea Dart systems on order in the early 1970s for the ships being built in place of the Type 21 I thought there was more chance of Land Dart surviving the 1974 Defence Review and it being purchased to replace Bloodhound in the RAF and Thunderbird in the British Army.

The next stage for the RN in the Sea Dart Wank was for GWS 31 Sea Dart to survive the 1981 Defence Review and a VL Sea Dart to be developed for Type 23. The R&D costs would be paid for with the money used for the 1980s upgrades of Sea Wolf.

This leaves the original GWS 25 Sea Wolf with no Type 22s to fit it to (there would be no Sea Wolf Leander refits either). However, IIRC the Invincible class was to have been fitted with 3 Sea Wolf systems, but they were deleted by Lord Carrington because he thought that there would be enough Sea Wolf armed frigates to escort them. ITTL no Sea Wolf armed frigates were in prospect in 1973 so he kept them on the Invincible class.

Re the Tromp/Type 42 power rating my copy of Janes NATO warships handbook give the Olympus stats as the same at 50000 SHP, but the Tynes as lower rated on the Tromp class (8000 vs 9700). Not sure about the Broomstick though... sorry.

I do like your thinking on the Sea Dart/Land Dart... i might steal it for my Chile Wank TL... if i can ever get past writing 1970 that is...
 
Perhaps there would have been a greater impact with regard to the Falklands War if the Type 43 had been built. The design was an enlarged Type 42 (170m long as opposed to the Type 42 at 119 or 132 depending on batch) and would have been 'double ended', with 2 twin Sea Dart launchers and 4 radars, as well as either 2 or 4 (depending on your source material) sextuple Sea Wolf launchers for close-in defence. The oddest aspect was moving the flight deck amidships, which would have been a challenge for flight crews but not impossible.
This project was cancelled in 1981, but had advanced to at least concept stage before stalling and ultimately being cancelled. If the design had progressed smoothly, without all the usual delays and reworkings, perhaps 1 or 2 of these vessels would have been built and in service by 1982; it's even possible that they would have been built instead of the 4 batch III Type 42's. Certainly there wouldn't have been the sort of delays or R&D costs that a relatively new system such as VLS would have bought with it. They would have retained the area defence system of Sea Dart whilst having very good close in defence from Sea Wolf. One or two of these ships would have happily filled the goalkeeper role of protecting the carriers in much the same way the Type 82 would have done for CVA-01.
 
Type 43 was cancelled in 1981 by John Nott. There were to have been 8 ships operating two Sea Dart, probably 8 Harpoon, STWS with Stingray, and at least two sextuple Sea Wolf plus mandatory 4.5 gun and a Sea King/Merlin. Quite a ship!
 
Type 43 was cancelled in 1981 by John Nott. There were to have been 8 ships operating two Sea Dart, probably 8 Harpoon, STWS with Stingray, and at least two sextuple Sea Wolf plus mandatory 4.5 gun and a Sea King/Merlin. Quite a ship!

There's some nice Shipbucket images of the 43, looks like a hell of a lot more warship than the early 42's.
 
According to SALAMDERS ILLUSTRATED GUIDE to "Modern Destroyers" there was an agreement between the Dutch & UK govt's that the RN would buy the "3D Broomstick" radar (which was also planned for the stillborn CVA-01 carrier) for the planned Type 42's if the Dutch bought the SeaDart system for their "Tromp" class.

This agreement fell through though when the Dutch said SeaDart was too costly and labour intensive, thus the RN had to fit the obsolete 992/965 radars until the 1022 sets were fitted.

Regards filers.
I knew.
 
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