AHC/WI: TNG Films Better

You know that Soran did kill Kirk directly in the original ending to Generations, right? It was awful, so they changed it in reshoots.
 
You know that Soran did kill Kirk directly in the original ending to Generations, right? It was awful, so they changed it in reshoots.

He shot him in the back in that original version. My suggestion would have been an epic battle which finally killed Kirk but saved the day, sacrificing himself in order to beat Soran. The victory and the death have to be totally intertwined, with the victory coming because of the sacrifice and the sacrifice being for the victory. It can not just be *biff* *pow*, we win, and oh, and he got killed in the mean time. In reality, Kirk went out like a bitch.
 
Michael Piller wrote a whole (officially unpublished) book about the scripting process for Insurrection, and it's revealing about the mentality at Paramount, the TNG cast, and the ST production staff. Making a better movie wouldn't be impossible, but it'd be a tall order. (I can't link directly to the book "Fade In", as Paramount occasionally pulls it from the internet and my current link is now dead, but a Google search should turn up something if you're curious.)

1. Because of the success of First Contact proving he was a bankable star, Patrick Stewart got an associate producer's credit on Insurrection, and a hand in the scripting process. Patrick Stewart wanted to flex his action movie chops, not his dramatic ones.

2. Insurrection was intended from the beginning to be a counterpoint in tone from FC, which was felt to be too dark and un-Treklike. In its earlier drafts, INS was basically a riff on Heart of Darkness, and was a fair bit grimmer. The Dominion War originally drove the need for the "medical mineral" that eventually became the fountain of youth device in the final script, but that element got eliminated. Rick Berman wasn't a fan of the Dominion War plot in general, and consulting with DS9's head writer made the matter moot as, when Insurrection would hit theaters, the war would be winding down on the TV show. Picard would spend half the movie tracking down Data and killing him, but that was vetoed for its darkness and turned into the short sequence we got. The idea of the Federation actually going to the dark side was incredibly controversial among everyone involved in the movie, with Stewart even making a joking aside about Gene Roddenberry spinning in his grave. The idea was kept, mostly because Piller was trying to salvage as much as he could from his previous drafts due to lack of time for a fresh start, but it got watered down.

3. All the script problems and plot holes people commonly bring up about Insurrection? They knew about them. Brent Spiner in particular gave Piller a laundry list of questions about the script that's practically out of a Plinkett review. Stewart even goes so far as to cite specific episodes that had covered the movie's themes already. Piller just couldn't iron them all out, partly because of time constraints before filming started. If there was ever an unclear point, or something ambiguous where it wasn't clear the audience understood why something was happening, Rick Berman stuck in technobabble dialogue to explain it. Piller talks about how even Berman would complain about excessive technobabble, but then regularly call him from the editing room to come up new technobabble explanations for why something was happening on-screen.


So making the TNG movies better than OTL? To do it, you'd need to shake up both the ST staff and the suits at Paramount. Both were of one mind about what ST was supposed to be like, and didn't want to deviate from that.

Generations was made with a long list of demands from Paramount from the very start:
*snipped*

There's also the factor of split commitments. Moore and Braga were writing the script for the TNG finale "All Good Things..." at the same time as the one for Generations. Moore admitted in some interview, I think his long tell-all one with IGN back in the early 2000s, that the finale ended up getting the majority of their attention, and that he and Braga weren't sufficiently experienced at that point with scripting movies.

Having someone other than Moore and Braga could likely help smooth out the script, despite the demands by Paramount you list.
 
Thande said:
An important change they could make is to ensure that Kirk's not dying for some no-name planet we never even see, but something we care about, like preventing Earth being destroyed or erased from history etc.

They also needed a better villain (I mean concept, not the actor). That's one reason why First Contact did so well, the Borg were already well known and were competently established within the film in a non "as you know" way for those people who didn't know about them. If Kirk is going to die it needs to be to stop someone who casts a longer shadow over Star Trek. Much like how Khan worked much better in Star Trek II than some generic villain made up for the film doing the same things would have.
Agreed. And there were enough aliens & potential threats they could've called on. Like the parasitic species that beams a message into deep space...& is never heard from again.:rolleyes:

"Insurrection" is one more example of the writers undermining Gene's fundamental vision of humans being good: you've got top Fed officials conspiring to steal a planet from people.:eek::eek:

"Nemesis" was crippled by a villain with no backstory, which would have helped, & no presence.:rolleyes: (If they'd cast, say, Chris Plummer again, it would've been different: with enough screen presence, you can pull off being "out of nowhere". Alan Rickman might've been interesting, too, after his Sheriff. Or James Earl Jones--if only for the irony of it.:p {"Jean-Luc, I am your father".:p})
 
"Insurrection" is one more example of the writers undermining Gene's fundamental vision of humans being good: you've got top Fed officials conspiring to steal a planet from people.:eek::eek:


For me is the fact that the morality of the action of all the people involved is not really
At one side there is the UFP, sure they want the fountain and are ready to let others do their dirty work...but are involved in a terrible war and the basic existence of the Federation is on peril, plus the UFP give something to the universe back, is an actor in the universe great stage.
On the other side the Ba'ku even if the righlty owner are just wanderer who luckily discovered the treasure and use it only for themself and for basically gazing their navel (and frankly even if deported they simply age and die as any normal being...thing that they were originally just years ago)
 
lukedalton said:
involved in a terrible war and the basic existence of the Federation is on peril
Ah, yes, the ends justify the means. Let's forget we have ethical obligations to our own people, too.:rolleyes:

Lets just ship the poor, benighted Indians--*ahem* aliens--to a place where there's nothing valuable where they can't survive without our handouts...:rolleyes:

The Federation was supposed to represent the best of humanity, not the worst.:mad:
 
Ah, yes, the ends justify the means. Let's forget we have ethical obligations to our own people, too.:rolleyes:

Lets just ship the poor, benighted Indians--*ahem* aliens--to a place where there's nothing valuable where they can't survive without our handouts...:rolleyes:

The Federation was supposed to represent the best of humanity, not the worst.:mad:

There is evil in all of us, even in the best of humanity, and if I were doing Insurrection, I'd have gone along those lines.
 
Ah, yes, the ends justify the means. Let's forget we have ethical obligations to our own people, too.:rolleyes:

Lets just ship the poor, benighted Indians--*ahem* aliens--to a place where there's nothing valuable where they can't survive without our handouts...:rolleyes:

The Federation was supposed to represent the best of humanity, not the worst.:mad:

Yes, but it will be a more interesting movie and a lot more drama instead of 'poor space amish must be protected at any cost by the evilz of modern civilization', and yes the Federation is supposed to represent a great leap forward for humanity but as stated in DS9 : Is easy be saint in Paradise...it's when you are on trouble that your principle are in discussion, when the question if the welfare of the few outweight that of the many is more terrible and has more dire consequence whatever solution you choose aka are more important the ethical consideration (basically your soul)...or all the lifes who this new discovery will save expecially during a war against an enemy who plan to kill the entire population of earth just to be sure that no rebellion will born from there.
 

Heavy

Banned
Perhaps if they had decided to make an eighth season (it was a contractually-provided option at the time, and some of the cast weren't entirely happy about finishing the programme after seven seasons when eight were possible) it might have had an effect on the direction of the films.
 
Generations big problem is that it starts twice; There's the whole section with the Enterprise-B that build to a crescendo and then back to zero when you switch to the TNG crew. To make it better you need to integrate the two arcs better. Oh and ditch the whole Picard's family all die thing, its just tacky and unnecessary.

I wouldn't really mess with First Contact

Insurrection; get rid of the insufferable 'space amish'. Seriously the whole rejection of technology and living in harmony thing doesn't really stand up when the Federation has made earth into a demi-paradise. A straight up fight over the healing energy with someone on the Federation side crossing the line to win would work better.

Nemesis. Lose B4 and the whole section around finding him. If Patrick Stewart wants some action sequences something along the lines of him having to fight his way onto Shinzon's ship would be better. Drop the creepy obsession with Troi and spend a bit more time giving us some insight into Shinzon.
 
Generations big problem is that it starts twice; There's the whole section with the Enterprise-B that build to a crescendo and then back to zero when you switch to the TNG crew. To make it better you need to integrate the two arcs better. Oh and ditch the whole Picard's family all die thing, its just tacky and unnecessary.

That was apparently a note from Patrick Stewart. Originally, it was just Picard's brother who died, and then merely of a heart attack. Stewart felt that was an insufficiently dramatic motivator for Picard and advised the script be altered for the whole family to die in a fire. So if you want it to be less tacky, Moore and Braga should ignore the note.

There wouldn't be many knock-on effects from potentially offending Stewart, either, as they were generally open to script suggestions from him in OTL. First Contact, for instance, originally had Picard on Earth and Riker on the Enterprise fighting the Borg. Stewart asked for them to be swapped around.
 

sharlin

Banned
Thing is we know that the TNG/DS9 folks were capable of doing some darn good writing with episodes like Inner Light, DS9's 'Duet' and Trials and Tribble-ations as well as All good things which had flaws but was a fine fine way to end the show.
 
Top