AHC/WI: the more wealthy part of Europe remains the South

What if Southern Europe ("Roman Europe") remained more prominent than Northern Europe ("Germanic Europe")? And how could that happen?

Also, would Scandinavians be considered non-European and Christian North Africans considered European?
 
My guess is that they need to get rid of the rampant Muslim piracy in the region, either by having them be so successful they're the only states in the med or by making them so weak they aren't able to have a big effect.
 
I sincerely doubt the idea of 'Europe' would even grow to any political significance ITTL. It'd all be about the Mediterranean world.
 
Note that a reason why Byzance thrived well (in the beggining, not later years as regions are lost..) is that it was apparently the richer parts of the Roman empire..
 
There would still be the idea of Christendom, which is why the old Greek idea of Europe was revived.

My guess is that they need to get rid of the rampant Muslim piracy in the region, either by having them be so successful they're the only states in the med or by making them so weak they aren't able to have a big effect.

Note that a reason why Byzance thrived well (in the beggining, not later years as regions are lost..) is that it was apparently the richer parts of the Roman empire..

So basically we're looking at halting the Arab Expansion from taking North Africa, and potentially the Mediterranean coast of Asia Minor or Syria as well. Which means stopping it altogether, halting it outside of Christendom, or diverting it away from the West - south towards Africa, further east than IOTL, or north into the lands of the Rus.
 
So basically we're looking at halting the Arab Expansion from taking North Africa, and potentially the Mediterranean coast of Asia Minor or Syria as well. Which means stopping it altogether, halting it outside of Christendom, or diverting it away from the West - south towards Africa, further east than IOTL, or north into the lands of the Rus.

Or shifting them so far west they rule the whole med.
 
So basically we're looking at halting the Arab Expansion from taking North Africa, and potentially the Mediterranean coast of Asia Minor or Syria as well. Which means stopping it altogether, halting it outside of Christendom, or diverting it away from the West - south towards Africa, further east than IOTL, or north into the lands of the Rus.

Ironicaly, had Byzance yelded quickly, the empire yelding without much destruction, or even converted willingly - ASB, we know - maybe they would remain a rich part... Integrated in the House of Islam, the trades roads open...

But then, if that was to open, instant hostility from western christian rulers.
 
Ironicaly, had Byzance yelded quickly, the empire yelding without much destruction, or even converted willingly - ASB, we know - maybe they would remain a rich part... Integrated in the House of Islam, the trades roads open...

But then, if that was to open, instant hostility from western christian rulers.
What would be cool is if the Byzantines had made the Arabs into foederati. There would be little precedent for it and it would be in the wrong time period but it would still be interesting.

Realistically, maybe they could have made the Arabs a buffer against the Persians, but still unlikely.
 
What would be cool is if the Byzantines had made the Arabs into foederati. There would be little precedent for it and it would be in the wrong time period but it would still be interesting.

Realistically, maybe they could have made the Arabs a buffer against the Persians, but still unlikely.

Even more ASB, due to distances and all, thought, but that could be.,. interesting.

A muslim and not too devasted Byzance... I wonder if anyone did that before, any timeline.
 
Even more ASB, due to distances and all, thought, but that could be.,. interesting.

A muslim and not too devasted Byzance... I wonder if anyone did that before, any timeline.
Well the Empire would still be Christian but the Arabic settlers could become a prominent empire-wide minority of traders and warriors. They might be viewed as Christian heretics instead of a separate religion.
 
Doesn't the greater agricultural capacity of Northern Europe mean that eventually its bound to outrank the South due to greater population?
 
You'd need to stop the rise of Islam. If there had still been a pan-Mediterranean system rather than two hostile religious groups on either side of the sea, southern Europe would still be at the center of trade and probably far wealthier than the north. Also, as another poster said, Arab pirate raids were absolutely devastating to southern European coastal settlements and caused many people to abandon the coast altogether.
 
Instead of pacifying the Mediterranean, how about making the North Sea extra dangerous? Viking era persists, Anglo-Saxons and Celts continue to be raiding cultures?
 
You'd need to stop the rise of Islam. If there had still been a pan-Mediterranean system rather than two hostile religious groups on either side of the sea, southern Europe would still be at the center of trade and probably far wealthier than the north. Also, as another poster said, Arab pirate raids were absolutely devastating to southern European coastal settlements and caused many people to abandon the coast altogether.

And yet we see the Italian cities rebuilding around the same time Western Europe emerges as something other than "those barbarians we don't even bother to acknowledge".

Also, as for riches vs. devastation: The Ottoman Empire.
 
Instead of pacifying the Mediterranean, how about making the North Sea extra dangerous? Viking era persists, Anglo-Saxons and Celts continue to be raiding cultures?

This is certainly plausible, and would a simple change, by simply having those areas remain pagan.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
introduce rice to med and southern europe ?

kill Charles Martel and make Islam succeed in conquering south France and Italy ?
 
introduce rice to med and southern europe ?

kill Charles Martel and make Islam succeed in conquering south France and Italy ?

The Mediterranean climate in general - maybe places here and there, but the region on the whole - is not rice country.

Too arid.
 
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